Asking Questions on the Arch forum

pablokal · 2011-03-04 15:11:28

Be sure when you ask a question there that it is a not Archbang related issue.
Of course that will be sometimes difficult to tell.
If you mention on the Arch forum, when you start a thread by asking a question, that you are using Archbang, this will be a reason to close the thread.

This maybe a unjust measure in some cases; otherwise it is quite understandable and justified: they don't want to help people out how didn't take the trouble to configure Arch themselves -as they see it- and who are too lazy to delve in the ArchWiki, - as I also see it sometimes- sorry to admit.

So if you have a real problem, first search the Archwiki, then the Arch forum, then this forum and then ask a question here.
Another option is to ask your question here, on the Arch section of the LinuxQuestions forum: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/arch-29/
Realize you're using a spin-off distro and that they see us a sort of degenerate Arch-leechers, that are tolerated at best.

oliver · 2011-03-04 15:22:51

pablokal wrote:

they see us a sort of degenerate Arch-leechers, that are tolerated at best.

do you really get that impression? Seems a bit harsh

To expand on this... the longer an Archbang installation is running, the lesser the deviation from standard Arch. It's not like a Sabayon/Gentoo deal where they're pretty much incompatible (i.e. you can't do an 'emerge -uDav world' on a sabayon install and expect happy results)

If it's possible to install a basic Arch and convert it to AB by just modifying configs then I don't see what their issue would be

Last edited by oliver (2011-03-04 15:36:40)

dobbs · 2011-03-04 15:52:00

When I ask questions on the Arch forum, I always ask it in terms of Arch this or Arch that. I've noticed that if questions are ArchBang specific, that a mod will quickly add a reply "They have their own forum (so go ask there, implied)".... :-)

pablokal · 2011-03-05 06:04:16

do you really get that impression? Seems a bit harsh

It is a pity you can't read this thread which I started in 10th of january, 2011and which is in Dutch: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=111496
The comments of B and litemotiv (both important mods of the Arch forum) are very telling. Especially litemotiv has made it since then his job to close every thread in which AB is mentioned as OS.

B gives the example of a very intelligent friend who has been preparing himself for months on installing Arch and he says that is exactly the profile of the user we are trying to reach. More citations:
The first test to prove you're up to Arch is that you are able to install it; the second one that you are able to keep it running. The third one, adds Litemotiv that you are able to refrain yourself from help-vampirism.

B writes : The consensus is that derivative installs harm the user (and in middle long tern the Arch community) in the long run more than that they profit from it. Archbang is like Crunchbang with the Arch coolness, but that doesn't give you the competence that the average Arch user has.
That this AB user doesn't have the courage to install Arch himself is symptomatic; this kind of user will not try to cope with problems himself and will be helpless and without initiative, and stand lingering till a helpful passer by comes along. This kind of user we don't want and need to have around; we can miss them like the plague.
Arch is aiming on a kind of user that is self-reliant and /or puts a lot of effort in becoming that.

In another context B writes we don't need Ubuntu users or the Ubuntu mentality, which is expecting that everything will be done for you and you get angry when no solutions are provided.

I think that it is not overstated to call AB the illegimate child of Arch, the bastard son for idiots to paraphrase Frank Zappa. Well in the eyes of some die hard Archers at least.

The funny thing is that I really get their point; I understand what they are aiming at.
And although I'm glad to help here on the forum, I also get annoyed when I see a post with someone stating three issues after each other in a very vague manner, without the sufficient information.
Sometimes I think: shouldn't I say, maybe you're not up to Arch yet?

oliver · 2011-03-05 23:23:58

thanks for clarifying.

borgio3 · 2011-03-06 03:07:35

In my experience i can't install AL on my computer because i have only a 3G internet connection (and AL haven't the appropriate tools to perform this connection type), AB do!
Where's the shame? After all AB is an AL-based distro!

I think that the first goal of any Linux distro is the users accessibility to that distro. AB has much accessibility for me respect to AL. I'm proud to use AB, consequently i'm proud to use AL!
Or i can't say that because i'm not been able to install a pure AL system?

Religious wars are SS (simply stupid) :-)

jlr1701 · 2011-03-30 13:20:15

I really like Arch Linux itself, but I strongly dislike the elitist attitude of the developers and some users, and the lack of concern over very important issues such as package signing is a big turnoff too. It's *almost* enough to turn me away from using Arch. Arch Linux is an operating system, not a religion.

As far as spin-offs go, the folks at Arch should be proud to have them around. Their dislike of Archbang is just another symptom of their serious attitude problem, IMHO.

Just my 2 cents. *shrugs*

But all of that said, I do really like Archbang. It's a great OS that I am having fun with, and it is amazingly fast!

pablokal · 2011-03-31 04:14:49

@jlr1701: It might be obvious but I agree 100%. Nice to know there are more people who agree with me on this. I also are considering seriously to turn away from arch because of these issues and the Arch forum that I really hate to visit because of the atmosphere of uncritical adulation and sect like conformity.
But your last sentence also fully applies to me; I just recently installed AB on a 10 year old pc and it is doing remarkable well. If I try something different, it will be a rolling release.

Prit (aka sHy) · 2011-07-02 04:39:09

I remember when I started working with Will on AB. ALl we had was a thread under their forum as shelter. Arch Users really helped us out. They were enthusiastic and encouraging. Some people have the Arch ego and that's precisely why I had specified in the Arch Wiki page as well: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ar … port_Forum not to post AB related queries in their forum after we created our own. Response time here might be a bit slow but patience is a virtue.

pablokal · 2011-07-02 15:06:18

Hi Shy, good to see you're alive and you're having a look here!

Colonel Panic · 2011-09-08 13:54:46

jlr1701 wrote:

I really like Arch Linux itself, but I strongly dislike the elitist attitude of the developers and some users, and the lack of concern over very important issues such as package signing is a big turnoff too. It's *almost* enough to turn me away from using Arch. Arch Linux is an operating system, not a religion.
As far as spin-offs go, the folks at Arch should be proud to have them around. Their dislike of Archbang is just another symptom of their serious attitude problem, IMHO.
Just my 2 cents. *shrugs*
But all of that said, I do really like Archbang. It's a great OS that I am having fun with, and it is amazingly fast!

Agreed.

The attitude you describe was what put me off trying Arch. To be fair, it wasn't all the Arch users / devs who were like it, but some of the most prolific posters (whom I won't name). Sad really. You don't ask people to take a degree course in automotive engineering before you let them drive a car.

Best,

CP .

Last edited by Colonel Panic (2011-09-08 14:03:01)

Texas · 2011-09-08 17:15:56

How is ArchBang not Arch? According to my /etc/pacman.d/mirrorlist it is!

pablokal · 2011-09-09 05:10:15

Of course it is a bit childish because most of the time the problem will be Arch related.

But on the other hand if you see the errors coming up with the new AB release these are all consquences of the new AB set up and it would be a bad situation if the mods of the Arch forum had to answer to that.
So with that in mind you can decide what is ok to ask here and what is legitimate to ask on the Arch forum.
But I would always try to look here first, look at the Arch forum/wiki second and ask questions here third.

rmoess · 2011-09-09 09:56:09

I concur with you @pablocal and agree with your suggestions. Users should always start with the distro's forum. Now, we're all adults, regardless of our age and we need not get our feelings in the way when someone answers to us in a way that we are not accustomed to. Granted, some users in forums believe that they are "god-like" and that they should not be bothered but they are the minority. I like Arch and I like ArchBang even more. I like the agility of Arch even if it is complex... kind of like FreeBSD. Beautiful, Simple, Complex, Easy and Hard all at the same time... @willextrem, you are doing a great job. Thanks to all who make ArchBang possible, included Arch devs...

archy · 2011-09-27 16:58:18

why arch's forum people is rude when u say u r using AB? a little jealous[lol] perhaps?

ArchVortex · 2011-09-27 23:43:46

@archy

LOL! I think it's because with ArchBang, you skip some of the procedures of installation, especially post-installation after the base system is installed. For many/most Arch users, successfully installing an Arch system with a functional desktop indicates an adequate amount of knowledge, competency and literacy to begin using Arch. I tend to agree. My own personal opinion is that every Arch user, whether Arch, ArchBang, CTKArch, Kahel OS, etc. should at least complete one successful installation of Arch, whether it's on a live or virtual system. It helps to know the procedure of how the Arch system + desktop is built so later on you know where to look to begin to fix problems if they arise or know how to follow instructions to fix the problem yourself. It's not mandatory to do this before using ArchBang, but it can help a lot. ArchBang users should be independent, looking for solutions first before asking questions. We're not going to spoonfeed you answers like some other distros and if you're lazy then you might just get 'politely' told to RTFM.

ArchBang, in the eyes of many Arch users/purists, is a shortcut. They would rather see you install Arch + Openbox by yourself (following Will's blog for instructions, of course!) than install ArchBang. There also Arch users who have already been using Arch and appreciate ArchBang because they already know the system and ArchBang is a great distrolet. Like Mr Green, for instance.

I can understand the feelings that some Arch mods and users have towards ArchBang in the Arch forums but a certain level of tolerance and consideration is needed. It takes the same amount of time to politely direct someone here or close a thread than it does to be rude and hostile. I was pleased to see Inxsible politely redirect one of our users back to our forum the other day.

Mr Green · 2011-09-28 00:58:07

archvortex wrote:

ArchBang, in the eyes of many Arch users/purists, is a shortcut. They would rather see you install Arch + Openbox by yourself (following Will's blog for instructions, of course!) than install ArchBang. There also Arch users who have already been using Arch and appreciate ArchBang because they already know the system and ArchBang is a great distrolet. Like Mr Green, for instance.

I wish I did know my system

jdarnold · 2011-12-08 09:19:03

Wish I read this topic before I made the mistake of mentioning AB on the Arch forum when I was running into a problem with flash crashing The moderator close hammer was out a mere seconds after I posted the question. It seems totally unreasonable to me, because as the AB wiki says, AB is Arch with a preinstalled OpenBox. Hardly seems like a alternative distro. I'll just be more careful, I guess.

pablokal · 2011-12-08 15:20:34

Not every mod on the Arch forum behaves that way, karol was rather permissive before.

I read this thread: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=131605
and found your argument in your contribution of the essence:

Because this forum has 10,000 users and the other one has 1,000? So if/when I get and/or post an answer, which should solve a problem for both Arch & Arch Bang users, it reaches the maximum audience? Again, these aren't questions that have to do specifically for Arch Bang - they would be questions whose answers would presumably benefit the entire Arch community.

That said I hardly ever visit the forum when not pointing people asking here to a solution that was already provided there. Mostly these kinds of issues are very hardware specific or have to do with recent updates. Most of the times the Arch Wiki suffices. I really hate being on the Arch forums and seeing some people drowning in their arrogance and self-indulgence, often at the expense of others.
Just as I pity the Crunchbang forums for some of these guys ruining the atmosphere there, thinking they are funny, smart or whatever.

barchi · 2013-05-29 13:31:46

pablokal wrote:

I really hate being on the Arch forums and seeing some people drowning in their arrogance and self-indulgence, often at the expense of others.
Just as I pity the Crunchbang forums for some of these guys ruining the atmosphere there, thinking they are funny, smart or whatever.

sorry, i must dig that out...

For me, it is always the same experience at the english archlinux forum, as pablolokal has already described. Dont want to be missunderstood, but i am using linux in any flavour for nearly 15 years now, as a normal (constant learning new things) user (or formerly called "poweruser") not a developer. I startet with Suse and Slackware back in 1998 (with a big carton with a very big user manual and many many floppy disks, much bigger than the DOS carton...) and quickly moved over to Debian because of the very nice debian-installer. Than that Ubuntu thing came up and all linux communities worldwide experienced more interest, including mine.

Because of the school, the games, the university and the job, i was always forced to use windows in parallel. Therefore, i have followed a lot of developments in the computer industries during the past 25 years and that means constant learning, not only because of the duty to do so, i was always curious enough to learn new things no matter how much time they demand or difficult they are. Since these www forums came up, i must say that i have made the most positive (supportive) experiences at the debian forum and the ubuntu forum and the archbang forum of course.

Honestly, my experiences with the english archlinux forum are the worst i have ever had in a linux forum.
I really do not understand the arrogant and dogmatic "support" style they have there.

Mr Green · 2013-05-29 23:39:10

Personally think it is a question of the sheer number of users arch linux forums has now. Mods have got very strict which is understandable but it does create an unfriendly atmosphere. When I started using Arch linux things were very different it was a much more helpful relaxed place, sure threads still went off topic very quickly but their was no 'nasty' edge to it.

scjet · 2013-05-30 09:32:07

as mentioned before, look at the sheer size of debian/buntu forums... and they are not near as "nasty".
But then again debian, moreso the Buntu's are supposed to be much easier to install for n00bs too ? - but, I wouldn't know about that anymore.

I think also what was helpful/more friendly back then was when Arch had a good Captain in charge -namely, Judd Vinet.
Atmosphere and environments, freindliness, ..., always reflect from the top -> down.

Last edited by scjet (2013-05-30 09:35:15)

barchi · 2013-05-30 09:39:01

i think you are right (answer to post #21), the mods there do not have an easy job, but the normal users?

The #1 problem is, in my opinion, they all have a predefined attitude towards new signed up users at the english archlinux forum. Every new user is not knowing what he is doing, every new user is too lazy to learn and or to read the wiki. This is what you get when you sign up as a new user there and dare to post a question, i see this missbehavior there since 4 years.

The #2 problem is, even the self declared experts there, do not read and understand the posts of the new members and therefore do not respect their requests, instead they post their own cut and dried opinions as answers.

The #3 problem is, everyone who wants to use archlinux (or a derivate) is in duty to read the documentations and the wiki to get it and keep it running. This is nothing special for "old" linux users coming from another distro and is a natural part of the self chosen learning process. But not every user has the same readiness of mind, resulting in incompetent answers from some older members, beside tons of prejudices. I got the impression that the high rate of posted prejudices and platitudes there is correlated with the fear of beeing discovered as "you did not read enough" or "you did not read at all" the wiki. Therefore every user who succeeded building an new arch installation is declaring himself as an expert there, although they are often not able to grasp the concept and post their prejudices and platitudes instead.

The mods there do not have the time to answer every question and the users there are more driven by emotion than by expertise. Thats an ugly coincidence and will hopefully never occure at our forum.

Last edited by barchi (2013-05-30 09:40:24)

Mr Green · 2013-05-30 10:04:25

I did mange to install Arch but I am no expert. As Linux in general evolves daily keeping up is a real struggle. On a day to day basis I usually surf and email (oliver constantly! with my bash sed related issues!!!)

With forums in general you have to work out the level a user has from there posts and grasp of English (as it not always there first language)

We try to keep it friendly here but then we are but a small forum.

pablokal · 2013-05-30 13:09:28

Quite a detailed view, you gave, barchi, and I agree with you.
Recently I installed Arch on a machine where Archbang wasn't useful (with efi boot) and again was irritated with the dull routine that is and people see that as giving insight; to do that for the Xth time??
The way people act in groups as analysed in social psychology is in average dreadful: peer pressure, hierarchies, conformity, scapegoating, informal and formal leadership. You see it all happen on the Arch forums; as i am doing this for the fun I try to avoid the bad vibrations as much as possible. If the leadership is authoritarian and not self critical and the crowd uncritical and fanboyish, there is little hope for change.

czubek · 2013-05-30 13:52:40

There is a twisted logic to the way help is meted out on the Arch Linux forums that reminds me of Catch-22. The more desperate one is for help, the less deserving one is of receiving it. Only those who need no help whatsoever are truly deserving.

scjet · 2013-05-30 16:06:33

In other words,
do NOT ask for help on the Arch forums, unless it "strokes" their dev's, and instead, if you're lucky, just search for the problem you have, and then hope that the subject, (or someone?) changes it to "[SOLVED]" -then that way, you'll hopefully get your fix.
- sure,..., that's a lovely way to run an Arch forum, isn't it ? "english", or anywise, .... ?

All I can say is, that I'm soooo happy, that friendly/helpful forums, like archbang, manjaro, bridge,..., exist,
just to "counter" that other ridiculous, and immature mindset.
... and also, They, unfortunately, still haven't realized just how much that "they" actually need forums like us, even if it's just for "FEEDBACK" !

Last edited by scjet (2013-05-30 16:38:39)

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#1 2011-03-04 15:11:28

Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#2 2011-03-04 15:22:51

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#3 2011-03-04 15:52:00

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#4 2011-03-05 06:04:16

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

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Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

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#10 2011-07-02 15:06:18

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#11 2011-09-08 13:54:46

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#12 2011-09-08 17:15:56

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#13 2011-09-09 05:10:15

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#14 2011-09-09 09:56:09

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#15 2011-09-27 16:58:18

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#16 2011-09-27 23:43:46

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#17 2011-09-28 00:58:07

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#18 2011-12-08 09:19:03

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#19 2011-12-08 15:20:34

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#20 2013-05-29 13:31:46

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#21 2013-05-29 23:39:10

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#22 2013-05-30 09:32:07

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#24 2013-05-30 10:04:25

Re: Asking Questions on the Arch forum

#25 2013-05-30 13:09:28

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