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#1 2014-10-19 01:54:06

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Fork


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#2 2014-10-19 14:33:46

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
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Re: Fork

Thanks for the link; isn't amazing how much division this all creates??

I hope that alternatives like runit as used by Void Linux will be more widely adopted and alternatives will be open for users.

BTw I haven't measured it but Void linux boots faster than Archbang. I never found  systemd to be so quick booting.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#3 2014-10-20 00:57:47

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

Live will be slower as archbang has to set up pacman. Installed it is fast and I am trying to free myself of netctl which is really slow. My attempts at using systemd-networkd have as yet failed.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#4 2014-10-20 02:58:47

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
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Re: Fork

I compared Void installed with Archbang installed when mentioning boot times.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#5 2014-10-20 07:08:27

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

a systemd-free Debian eh?  mmm
I wonder where I've heard that one before, maybe it was another Distro, in another time, feels like deja-vu ...?   wink

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#6 2014-10-20 11:48:09

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

Arch can boot very very fast, really depends on what services started.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#7 2014-10-20 18:42:00

moravec
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From: near volcano, pacific NW, USA
Registered: 2010-10-07
Posts: 114
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Re: Fork

a systemd-free Debian eh?  mmm
I wonder where I've heard that one before, maybe it was another Distro, in another time, feels like deja-vu ...?   wink

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Void is not Debian but independant.


ex Distro Junkie, Archbang addict

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#8 2014-10-20 23:42:22

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

Void is not based on Debian, more like a blend of arch and Gentoo but with runit init system.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#9 2014-10-21 03:56:25

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
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Re: Fork

Analyzing  my boo time it is especially the external usb hard drives and the regular creation of a man db that take a lot of time.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#10 2014-10-21 11:43:54

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

My boot time, given that netctl is a real hog!

   
           systemd-analyze blame
          8.702s netctl@wlp2s0\x2dwireless.service
          1.210s psd.service
           422ms systemd-remount-fs.service
           412ms systemd-udev-trigger.service
           392ms kmod-static-nodes.service
           389ms systemd-modules-load.service
           360ms dev-mqueue.mount
           248ms systemd-vconsole-setup.service
           245ms dev-hugepages.mount
           153ms systemd-logind.service
           151ms alsa-restore.service
           132ms systemd-fsck@dev-disk-by\x2duuid-75a8e4e0\x2d3f79\x2d4290\x2da843\x2dd554bcfd440f.service
           109ms rfkill-unblock@all.service
           109ms systemd-user-sessions.service
           109ms systemd-fsck@dev-disk-by\x2duuid-1ce47317\x2d2670\x2d4c25\x2d98de\x2d604564c2c041.service
            89ms psd-resync.service
            87ms sys-kernel-debug.mount
            77ms sys-kernel-config.mount
            77ms systemd-sysctl.service
            76ms systemd-tmpfiles-setup-dev.service
            75ms systemd-random-seed.service
            67ms systemd-update-utmp.service
            59ms tmp.mount
            31ms user@1000.service
            27ms systemd-rfkill@rfkill1.service
            26ms systemd-backlight@backlight:acpi_video0.service
            25ms systemd-udevd.service
            15ms systemd-journal-flush.service
            15ms systemd-backlight@backlight:nv_backlight.service
            14ms systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service
            11ms systemd-rfkill@rfkill3.service
            11ms systemd-rfkill@rfkill2.service
             6ms home.mount
             5ms systemd-rfkill@rfkill0.service
             3ms home-mrgreen-Media.mount
             2ms sys-fs-fuse-connections.mount

Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#11 2014-10-22 06:16:07

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

,,,it appears to be picking up (media) steam.  smile
http://adtmag.com/articles/2014/10/21/debian-fork.aspx

Last edited by scjet (2014-10-22 06:18:53)

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#12 2014-10-22 07:44:14

xtremyst
Member
Registered: 2011-11-21
Posts: 331

Re: Fork

Good to hear there are people out there still fighting for the right of choice. However I'm afraid I'm not so optimistic. Even if they're given the chance to keep an alternative init system at first, sooner or later the whole project might hit a wall since systemd has the tendency to spread in various other packages, causing a huge mess. Of course it's still worth the fight and maybe an alternative, that would be able to survive in long term, might appear.

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#13 2014-10-29 08:49:37

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20141027#qa
Debian, systend and forks:
a discussion, with DW(Jessie Smith), and the the "VUA" foks at debianfork.

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#14 2014-11-19 11:17:36

xtremyst
Member
Registered: 2011-11-21
Posts: 331

Re: Fork

It seems that the init discussion and voting on Debian is officially over : http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n … px=MTg0MzY
The day after that, Ian Jackson resigned from the Debian Technical Committee http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n … px=MTg0NDA

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#15 2014-11-19 14:03:05

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: Fork

Thanks for letting us know...pity it is disappointing.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#16 2014-11-19 20:28:37

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

Yes, that is too bad.

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#17 2014-11-20 00:16:52

throdon
Member
Registered: 2011-06-24
Posts: 105

Re: Fork

Debian is not as stable as it used to be.

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#18 2014-11-29 10:09:40

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

It looks like Debian will  "fork" afterall, according to an email, and I for one, wish them the very best, for their courage, ..., and will try to help in any way I can, time permitting.

Dear Init-Freedom lovers,

The Veteran Unix Admin collective salutes you.

As many of you might know already, the Init GR Debian vote promoted by
Ian Jackson wasn't useful to protect Debian's legacy and its users
from the systemd avalanche.

This situation prospects a lock in systemd dependencies which is
de-facto threatening freedom of development and has serious
consequences for Debian, its upstream and its downstream.

The CTTE managed to swap a dependency and gain us time over a subtle
install of systemd over sysvinit, but even this process was exhausting
and full of drama. Ultimately, a week ago, Ian Jackson resigned
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/20 … 00091.html.

The problem is obviously not just technical: the VUAs idea of calling
for a "fork" mostly refers to the lack of common ground between
diverging perceptions of the Debian project, its governance and its
mission. Diverse mediation attempts have failed. Today we can all
peacefully agree on one thing: further negotiations related to systemd
are costing way too much energy for anyone concerned about the cause
of Init Freedom.

We believe this situation is also the result of a longer process
leading to the take-over of Debian by the GNOME project
agenda. Considering how far this has propagated today and the
importance of Debian as a universal OS and base system in the
distribution panorama, what is at stake is the future of GNU/Linux in
a scenario of complete homogeneization and lock-in of all base
distributions.

Therefore, looking at how the situation stands today: we need to fork.

In appendix to this mail is the message of Roger Leigh, a Debian
Developer and maintainer of many important parts in Debian. We have
his endorsement and that of other 2 anonymous DDs, plus many letters
from concerned professionals upstream and downstream of Debian.

We welcome all Debian Developers intrigued by our plans. The Dyne.org
non-profit foundation has accepted to provide us support and the
administrative framework we need to get up to speed. If we all
struggle for elegance it will be a light and lean effort, think of
channeling the bad energies into creating something new and beautiful
in its simplicity...

# So we will fork!

First of all, our project is called "Devuan". Our home is on
https://devuan.org. Please spread the word.
The Debianfork website and IRC channel stay as the first campfire for
this adventure, but we will be operating under the name "Devuan" from
now on and we invite everyone to use this name when referring to our
project.

Now we need all your support and attention in order to shape this as a
collective and welcoming process for all the people inside and outside
Debian that are willing to contribute to it.

Our fork will grow gradually and step by step, tracing a path that is
different from the one that systemd and the GNOME projects are trying
to impose on everyone. There is space for everyone who wants to
participate, a good channel to start from is #devuan on freenode, the
GitHub issues are the TODO and main topic for that channel, while the
well participated #debianfork stays open for the more general
discussion.

# So what's the plan?

First mid-term goal is to produce a reliable and minimalist base
distribution that stays away from the homogenization and lock-in
promoted by systemd. This distribution should be ready about the time
Debian Jessie is ready and will constitute a seamless alternative to
its dist-upgrade. As of today, the only ones resisting are the
Slackware and Gentoo distributions, but we need to provide a solid
ground also for apt-get based distributions. All project on the
downstream side of Debian that are concerned by the systemd avalanche
are welcome to keep an eye on our initiative and evaluate it as an
alternative base. We will work carefully to make it a viable
possibility and our primary goal here will be a clean removal of
systemd and its dependencies, rebuilding and patching packages when
necessary.

There is already an interesting proof of concept for this plan: the
website http://without-systemd.org/debian-jessie/ (by Obri) explains
the pinning method and provides a 64bit installer of Debian testing
free from systemd. We are running a systemd-free pin on our new Devuan
infrastructure already, well ready to eat our own dogfood of
course. If you have greneric experiments to contribute, experiences or
ideas and documention on this and other approaches, feel free to use
the wiki on http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page.

We started setting up the first bits of a core infrastructure to host
a website, mailinglists and a dak based package repository (to be
mirrored, soon details!).

We are also uploading materials on the https://github.com/devuan group
which we plan to use as a development platform, at least in this
initial phase.

For those willing to help immediately, we still need to setup a BTS
(https://www.debian.org/Bugs/) which will allow us to inherit a lot of
the useful tools Debian has developed.

At last we plan to have continuous integration of packages from GitHub
to a Jenkins builder (http://jenkins-debian-glue.org/) and then to our
package repositories. Feel free to experiment and let us know

Continuous Integration Pipeline:

Github --> Jenkins --> packages.devuan.org .oO mirrors

Once this is all set, we will be ready to welcome package maintainers.

Besides the BTS we will use GitHub issues on
https://github.com/devuan/devuan-baseconf/issues for task
coordination.

The first package of Devuan is indeed `devuan-baseconf` which
basically consists of a Debian installer with preseed of sysvinit-core
and a couple of devuan packages containing devuan keyring, devuan
repository list files and pinning out of systemd-sysv. Once installed
and updated this package will avoid the requirement of systemd as PID
1 in any case and will prefer use of systemd-shim when strictly
needed.

# More about the vision

This is just a start, as bold as it sounds to call it fork, at a
process that will unfold in time and involve more people, first to
import and change Debian packages and later on to maintain them under
a separate course. To help with this adventure and its growth, we ask
you all to get involved, but also to donate money so that we can cover
the costs of setting the new infrastructure in place.

Devuan aims to be a base distribution whose mission is to put the
freedom of users: to be intended as developers, sysadmins and in
general tech-savvy people, as the majority of Debian users are. Among
the priorities are: enable diversity, interoperability and backward
compatibility for the existing Debian downstream willing to preserve
Init Freedom and avoid the opaque and homogenizing systemd avalanche.

Devuan will derive its own installer and package repositories from
Debian, modifying them where necessary, with the first goal of
removing systemd, still inheriting the Debian development workflow and
continuing it on a different path: free from bloat as a minimalist
base distro should be. Users will be able to switch from Debian 7 to
Devuan smoothly, as if they would dist-upgrade to Jessie.

Devuan will make an effort to rebuild an infrastructure similar to
Debian, but will also take the opportunity to innovate some of its
practices. Devuan developers look at this project as a fresh new start
for a community of interested people and do not intend to enforce the
vexation of hierarchy and bureaucracy that is often opposing
innovation in Debian. We are well conscious this is possible mostly
because of starting small again and we will do our best to not repeat
the same mistakes.

The Devuan distribution will make an effort to improve its
relationship with both upstream and downstream and, particularly in
its gestational phase, will do its best to accomodate needs of those
downstream distributions willing to adopt it as base. We look forward
to statements of interest from such distributions, as well involvement
in this planning phase.

Devuan will do its best to stay minimal and abide to the UNIX
philosophy of "doing one thing and doing it well". It will foster
diversity and freedom of choice among all its components and will
perceive itself not as an end product, but as a a process, a starting
point for developers, a viable base for sysadmins and a stable tool
for people who have enough experience with computers. Devuan will
never compromise for more efficiency at the cost of the the freedom of
its users, rather than leave that and the responsibility for a secure
setup to downstream developers.

# If you need Devuan, then join us and support us now!

Donations: https://devuan.org/donate.html

Designers and creatives: please contribute logos! we don't have one yet.

Wiki: http://without-systemd.org/wiki

GitHub: https://github.com/Devuan

Press and contacts: vua@debianfork.org

General discussion (1st mailinglist):
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/m … stinfo/dng

IRC chat channels on freenode:
#debianfork (generic discussion)
#devuan (focus on development)

- -- We conclude quoting a letter by Roger Leigh

Hi,

I'm a Debian developer, currently quite disillusioned with what's been
going on with Debian over the last two years.  I'd certainly be
interested in getting involved with a fork.

If systemd had just been an interchangeable init system it wouldn't be
so problematic.  It's the scope creep and mess of poorly-defined
interdependencies that are truly shocking.  Take logind, for example.
When looking at how to implement XDG_RUNTIME_DIR for non-systemd
inits, I couldn't find any actual specification for how to do this.
That's because there isn't one, just some loosely-worded descriptions;
it only exists in the systemd implementation.  And the semantics of it
are very poor indeed; it hasn't been developed with safety, security
or flexibility in mind.  We'll come to regret adopting this since the
poor design decisions are likely to become entrenched.

And more recently, there have been several reports of unbootable
systems.  That's unconscionable, and a serious break with Debian's
traditionally solid support for backward compatibility.  Here,
existing supported systems have had that support dropped on the floor.
With sysvinit great effort was taken never to break existing
configurations, and that appears to have been lost.  Introducing
dependency-based boot took over two stable cycles; optional in one,
default in the next, mandatory after that.  That could have been
reduced certainly, but the point is that time was taken to ensure
its correctness and robustness (and in the beginning, it did need
work, so the wait was worthwhile).  This has not occurred with
systemd, which has been made the default yet is still not ready
for production use.

Debian is developed by hundreds of active developers and used by many
times more people.  People rely on Debian for their jobs and
businesses, their research and their hobbies.  It's not a playground
for such radical experimentation.  systemd support was forced in
rapidly and didn't just cause breakage, it caused breakage with our
own past, breaking the reliable upgrades which Debian has been
renowned for.  Personally, I'd like to see a much higher regard for
stability and backward compatibility, rather than just ripping out
the old in place of the new without any regard for its true value.
It might not be bleeding edge, but we already have Fedora for people
who value this over a solid and dependable system.  It's possible to
be up-to-date without being a Fedora; Debian unstable historically
made a good job of this.


Kind regards,
Roger

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-29 10:34:19)

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#19 2014-11-29 10:35:36

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

After 10 years of using Arch linux I am very tempted to switch too Void.

Void linux is fast,easy to set up, feature rich and systemd (though you can use it if you so wish)


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#20 2014-11-29 11:13:43

moravec
Member
From: near volcano, pacific NW, USA
Registered: 2010-10-07
Posts: 114
Website

Re: Fork

I like void however it does not have the package base or support that arch does.   I haven't had much luck with templates and xbps-src.


ex Distro Junkie, Archbang addict

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#21 2014-11-29 11:40:24

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

Shame if you stuck with it I am sure they will soon catch up.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#22 2014-11-29 13:04:26

moravec
Member
From: near volcano, pacific NW, USA
Registered: 2010-10-07
Posts: 114
Website

Re: Fork

Shame if you stuck with it I am sure they will soon catch up.

I'm sticking with it and I think you are right that it will catch up.  I'm not yet to the point of going completely away from arch/archbang to void.


ex Distro Junkie, Archbang addict

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#23 2014-11-29 13:46:57

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

I left Ubuntu/Unity back in 2010 for Arch(Bang), and sure I secretly also cheer for BSD, and always will,  since healthy competition is good for all, as long as it stays healthy -systemd unfortunately, changed all that in a very UN-healthy way. imho.
However, I'm not ashamed to admit I have stuck with Arch for many reasons, even though systemd, primarily because drivers and packages fill my needs whereas BSD "still" needs more TLC in the Desktop-end still.

Void Linux and this potential "fork" of Debian are worth following, and being that I'm used to jumping back n' forth. Voidbang looks promising, especially if it's slow and steady as she goes,... that is the richness and freedom of GNU/Linux too.

If archbang turned into voidbang, I may still use Arch,..., but Voidbang would be my "new" goto hobby.
..., Anyway, enough "Tears-for-Fears",  wink  the long wait is finally over, we can ALL(as Linux-users'), once again breath deeply, and pick what we want to use. -nice!

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-29 13:54:19)

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#24 2014-11-29 13:53:12

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

What about running pacman under Void? Runit under arch does work but getting daemons X dbus working without systemd is a real pain. Not really looked at uselessd, still getting my head around Void and how fast it is.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#25 2014-11-29 14:00:03

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

I think Voild pkg-manager is fine, and with future improvements it'll only get better,  adding pacman is not going to add any newer pkgs to Void any faster than xbps, (although cryptic), already is doing, it's going the right way.
I think of Void as the new upcoming kid-brother of Crux? -sort of.?

schtick with it and Voidbang, or Voidi3, or... will get there 'fer sure, but hey, this is your baby Mr. G   wink

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-29 14:06:59)

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#26 2014-11-29 14:15:06

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

It will be once I get installer working, am very tempted to go with lxqt.

Gparted is added finally got it working from root menu wink


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#27 2014-11-29 14:15:12

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

The next final hurdle, would be where and how is Wayland/Mir/Gnome/... gonna sit with all this ?
That worries me more than the "fork" does.
but right now I'm just happy about the "Devuan" fork, and I should NOT be all "Debbie-Downer" about more future this or that within Linux...
wink

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-29 14:20:51)

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#28 2014-11-29 14:18:56

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Fork

Who cares I will simply run console until that gets infected too wink


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#29 2014-11-29 14:22:29

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

@Mr G
You guys are iso'ing  Voidbang in leaps n bounds, it's slowly looking good, mucho thanks for that.

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-29 14:24:27)

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#30 2014-11-29 17:55:26

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: Fork

scjet wrote:

..., Anyway, enough "Tears-for-Fears",  wink  the long wait is finally over, we can ALL(as Linux-users'), once again breath deeply, and pick what we want to use. -nice!

Apologies for totally hijacking this for selfish reasons but I've got to acknowledge any post that mentions 80s music.

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#31 2014-11-30 02:58:08

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

oliver wrote:
scjet wrote:

..., Anyway, enough "Tears-for-Fears",  wink  the long wait is finally over, we can ALL(as Linux-users'), once again breath deeply, and pick what we want to use. -nice!

Apologies for totally hijacking this for selfish reasons but I've got to acknowledge any post that mentions 80s music.

woof   big_smile

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-30 06:14:45)

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#32 2014-11-30 03:08:04

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Fork

this is a bit off-topic from the Devuan fork, in fact, it's more to do with "Jordan Hubbard - FreeBSD: The Next 10 Years"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mri66Uz6-8Y

In it, at around the 27 minute mark Jordan mentions the possible/potential use of something like "launchd/openlaunchd", Or, (get ready) a port of "systemd" to eventually replace the present bsd-rc/inits. ?
Even Herr Poetterix chimed in with his pleasantness for this news.  -LoL.

I used to laugh about FreeBSD ever letting itself get entangled in the systemd octopus, but now, it may actually come to pass ?  WTF ?!
sad

[Edit] ...even though I use BSD less than I used too, still I'd rather see a Solaris SMF for freebsd, or even OSX's lunchd,..., anything but systemd, imho.

Last edited by scjet (2014-11-30 06:15:57)

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