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#1 2014-04-05 06:05:45

dragonauta
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Registered: 2012-05-15
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Linus banned systemd developer's key

http://m.networkworld.com/news/2014/040 … ml?hpg1=bn

Problem raises when you add "debug" to kernel command line.
Systemd gets crazy and flood your system making it unable to boot.

Linus asked to fix this and the systemd devs said that kernel maintainers should workaround this issue.

Too much... systemd gets banned until they fix their crap

Autoritarism? Common sense?
What do you think?


me
"Politicians and diapers need to be changed often ... and for the same reasons."

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#2 2014-04-05 07:08:05

oliver
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Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Firmly on the side of Linus here... if you add debug to the *kernel* command line it should be the kernel that utilizes it, not the init system.  It was a kernel option long before systemd too

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#3 2014-04-05 08:02:22

dragonauta
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Registered: 2012-05-15
Posts: 313
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I personally think that there're two types of developers you always remember:
- the amazing ones
- and the dick-headed ones

Lennart and all his "harem" are f*cking good programmers, but they're into the dick-headed group.
Their attitude f*ck up all the good work they do.


me
"Politicians and diapers need to be changed often ... and for the same reasons."

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#4 2014-04-05 15:26:13

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I hope this leads to an expel of systemd of  and teh development of a general used alternative to systemd.
What really amazes me it has taken so long for people maintaining the kernel getting fed up with systemd maintainers.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#5 2014-04-06 00:44:14

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Looking at sinit at the moment, you do know that initscripts are still in aur and do work.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#6 2014-04-07 12:44:38

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

YES !!!

Thankyou @Dragonauta, you made my year, -lol.
...In other words, more development on the cross-platform OpenRC would have been a much better allternative, and just scrap this systemD'uh-binary-blobberia.

Just substitute the verbal word "Nvidia" with "SystemD" below, and Poettering gets the Fickle-Finger-of-Fate Award. !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN1EnZk91A0

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-07 12:51:53)

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#7 2014-04-07 12:50:43

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Well anyone who wants in on initscripts iso please sing out.....


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#8 2014-04-07 13:07:34

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

All I did was post that same informational link above http://m.networkworld.com/news/2014/040 … ml?hpg1=bn
on Arch forums, in case someone was interested, and instead, I got permanently banned. I assume their mods/devs didn't like that link ?   wink
ahh well, I rarely post there anyway.

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-07 13:08:50)

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#9 2014-04-07 13:15:17

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Mr Green wrote:

Well anyone who wants in on initscripts iso please sing out.....

You can count me in, even though I lack the programming/dev experience.  sad
As a pessimistic view, I honestly see "systemd" fixing this, -they have NO choice, + the fact that many important things are tied into systemd now,...
But I honestly hope that they do NOT fix it, and then the init/dev ppl can start building up a more decent, script manageable for the User, aka, rc/initsys, openrc,...

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-07 13:17:08)

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#10 2014-04-07 13:22:58

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

dragonauta wrote:

I personally think that there're two types of developers you always remember:
- the amazing ones
- and the dick-headed ones

Lennart and all his "harem" are f*cking good programmers, but they're into the dick-headed group.
Their attitude f*ck up all the good work they do.

Yep, unfortunately, a lot of (the leading)Arch dev's work very closely with those (multiple-"dick-headed")-Redhat group, explains why systemd was thrown into Arch so fast.

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-07 13:25:42)

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#11 2014-04-07 13:32:42

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

# systemd-blame systemd

wink

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#12 2014-04-07 15:27:03

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

All I did was post that same informational link above http://m.networkworld.com/news/2014/040 … ml?hpg1=bn
on Arch forums, in case someone was interested, and instead, I got permanently banned. I assume their mods/devs didn't like that link ?   wink
ahh well, I rarely post there anyway.

Is this true? Incredible. They should move to Putins Russia and become part of his pack of wolves; they will feel at home there.
About removing systemd; I have understood from what  we tried from the beginningwhen systemd was presented that is rather difficult to maintain a non systemd Arch.
I don't see significant changes concerning this problem.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
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#13 2014-04-07 15:58:22

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Shows how open minded the mainstream Arch community is - thats just bad policy. Glad to be somewhere that we can speak on level terms - I dislike systemd, but I don't hate people who use it, and I respect their right to use it, so long as they don't hassle me for using alternatives.

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#14 2014-04-07 16:46:56

oliver
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Posts: 2,209

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

scjet wrote:

All I did was post that same informational link above http://m.networkworld.com/news/2014/040 … ml?hpg1=bn
on Arch forums, in case someone was interested, and instead, I got permanently banned. I assume their mods/devs didn't like that link ?   wink
ahh well, I rarely post there anyway.

To ban you for posting that is appalling... it's news that could potentially affect the vast majority of Arch users.

I really hope you're leaving out some important detail like that you also called the devs a bunch of plums or something to justify the ban :-)

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#15 2014-04-07 17:02:41

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Nope, seriously, I did not swear, or use any F* words, and no, I did not call out any arch dev's, 'cause it's not them directly, but you're right, it may very well affect them, and all Arch Users. - dam I should have mentioned that too.

However,  I posted that url  with a "..Finally, well systemD got what it desreved, Linus Torvalds was right again, and ..." -u know that kinda stuff, sheesh, It was only 1 Line.
I guess to the Arch mods/devs, they took that like I was baiting them..., or whatever?
I know what you mean, and you know me Oliver, I do get a little mouthy, sometimes, but I;'ve read a lot worse over at Arch, than I ever posted there.
But renmeber, I was also "temporarily" banned, once before, along with many, many others, way back when, for asking questions and outwardly complaIning  about systemd... that kinda stuff..., and I forget what else.

I dunno, maybe it was the 3 strikes and your out, they must have a counter... and then thats it?
The point is, this "systemd" news is all over the net now, slashdot, guardian, reddit, ..., everyone has picked it up, but on Arch Forums, you don't even hear a whisper of it.  -they're obviously protecting their own, (and Redhats) interests...?.

ahh well, c'est la vie.

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-07 17:16:36)

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#16 2014-04-08 00:18:28

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

You are always welcome here, can always edit your posts to remove colourful language :-)


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#17 2014-04-09 10:45:57

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Mr Green wrote:

You are always welcome here, can always edit your posts to remove colourful language :-)

(seriously) TY Mr, G, and all...:
Yes, I thought about this for awhile, not that it really matters, but the point is, this is exactly the sort-of way mods/devs of "Arch Forums" should be responding to its Users, (like Mr Green has above).
Responding to ppl properly, be they ignorant, somewhat familiar, experieinced, advanced,..., whatever the technical/social recipe needs, is a lot better than their(Arch Forums) sometimes unbelievably "closed" and totalitarian viewpoints, and attitudes, especially when it comes to things that are real, factual, and have been found out to be true, and obviously url'd elsewhere.  ...
This is why, imho, ArchBANG !  Forums rule, they're atleast more forthright, and understanding, ... whatever, I can't think of the right words right now,..., but you know what i mean ...

In other words, it does NOT mean "everyone" is a troll, just because they don't agree with you, or me, them, or whoever...

  so ya, I'm just defending my rights, and others, to express their opinion, with freedom.
Oh look, you see, and that's why John Lennon is in the top 10 with these others !, (or it's a really weird typo?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Britons
(right up there with Sir Issac Newton, and Charles Darwin...)

Feel free, and never be ashamed to express that freedom.
smile

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-09 11:11:22)

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#18 2014-04-09 11:19:50

oliver
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Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

scjet wrote:

Oh look, you see, and that's why John Lennon is in the top 10 with these others !, (or it's a really weird typo?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Britons
(right up there with Sir Issac Newton, and Charles Darwin...)

No Morrissey.  I'm out.

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#19 2014-04-09 14:49:35

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Where is Dr. Zachary Smith?


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#20 2014-04-11 19:25:06

ArchVortex
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From: Ts’elxweyeqw, Canada
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,465

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

The chickens have come home to roost. Did Kay and Lennart really think they'd be able force Linus into accepting crap code forever? Has Greg KH weighed in with his thoughts. Their attitude (especially Lennart's) of pushing out crap code and blaming the end user for having a broken system and expecting others to file bug reports and submit fixes is lazy, arrogant, irresponsible and diabolical. I stopped using Arch and systemd a year ago. I could see the writing on the wall and what the future held for those distros that switched to systemd. This unfortunately meant I had to leave this project and the great team here. 

I really hope Linus tells Kay and Asshat to get lost permanently from submitting code to the kernel and systemd dies a painful death. The sad thing is is that a lot of time has been wasted by so many people on systemd that could have been spent improving OpenRC, Upstart or the old init. How sad for all those forced into using crapware built as a monument to one person's ego.


You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today.
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#21 2014-04-12 04:41:15

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Hey @ArchVortex,  long time no hear bud.
Hope all is well as can be for you and yours.  smile

...but ya, regarding this latest systemd mess, I agree,
can you just imagine "Kay and Asshat" refusing to fix/patch this new, not-so-recent "Heart Bleed" server bug, if they were in charge of that, becuase of laziness and/or their feelings got hurt...???
I'm so glad "they", and their over-inflated ego's, are NOT the goto guys for (Open)SSL on Linux servers worldwide, or we'd be in worse trouble, than we already are.

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-12 04:50:10)

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#22 2014-04-12 13:35:18

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Yeah, AV, drop in a line once in awhile, so we know you're are still alive... missed your fierce criticism...


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#23 2014-04-19 09:36:00

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

scjet wrote:

YES !!!

Thankyou @Dragonauta, you made my year, -lol.
...In other words, more development on the cross-platform OpenRC would have been a much better allternative, and just scrap this systemD'uh-binary-blobberia.

Just substitute the verbal word "Nvidia" with "SystemD" below, and Poettering gets the Fickle-Finger-of-Fate Award. !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN1EnZk91A0

I just realized yesterday, how the systemd octopus spreads its tentacles in arch pkgbuilds.
It gets increasingly difficult to remove systemd, due to pointless systemd depends.

If this continues, any systemd alternative on arch would mean forking arch.

And then, there was this short conversation. I thought the chief dev of arch linux was uttering and joking. In reality, it is a display of dishonesty.
https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/39954

He complains about the depend mess, they created, and complains, 3rd party pkgbuild (are forced to) implement systemd interfaces. Absolutely absurd, because they deliberately don't separate between udev and systemd functionality.

It was a very bad idea to megre udev into systemd project.

Rant end.

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-19 10:47:11)

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#24 2014-04-19 12:43:14

scjet
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From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

@Artoo,  thanks for that info.
In other words, to me anyway, "they"(Arch devs upstream) feel confident now that Arch could/will never be forked ? Obviously they do, 'cause they NEVER DID CARE for any $User's feedback on their "systemD'uh" decision, ...,  in the first place.

@AV and many, many others, myself included, were right. We're simply witnessing the IBM-Redhatization/Windowsization of Arch, "they" can't(or fear-of) bite the hand that feeds them, in fact, tha's exactly all it is.
The only good/remaining thing is, we do still get the latest Arch kernel/drivers/apps, ..., but with a little less control-thanks to systemd.
Yes, isn't that wonderful though?
wink
A fair CHOICE would've been the better ultimate course, but as you described, that is impossibly hard to do now, unless Arch is completely "FORKED".

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-19 18:40:46)

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#25 2014-04-19 17:53:11

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

http://www.linuxadvocates.com/2013/04/s … table.html
and the above is from over a year ago.
... here's an excerpt from Patrick Volkerding, of Slackware fame:
---------------------------------------------------------

"...Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable, and I'm guessing that's what most Slackware users prefer too. I don't spend all day rebooting my machine, and having looked at systemd config files it seems to me a very foreign way of controlling a system to me, and attempting to control services, sockets, devices, mounts, etc., all within one daemon flies in the face of the UNIX concept of doing one thing and doing it well. To the typical end user, if this results in a faster boot then mission accomplished. With udev being phased out in favor of systemd performing those tasks we'll have to make the decision at some point between whether we want to try to maintain udev ourselves, have systemd replace just udev's functions, or if we want the whole kit and caboodle...."

---------------------------------------------------------
A (Linux/Unix IT-Manager) friend of mine recently left (got laid-off), from the so-called "IT/Sys-Admin" world, due to the fact(s) as he said, briefly:,
"...what Unix Sys-Admin world ? basically, -The Internet,.., today is run by a bunch of *Programmers only,..."

LoL  -I know exactly what he meant by that, and please understand, it's nuthin' personally against Programmers. it's a figure-of-speech.
Instead,  it's about "power", and "control" and ultimately, "who" retains it.
And, "systemd" is a prime example, of how power corrupts absolutely, with more "control" going to them-( ie: Corps like M$, IBM/Redhat, Google/Android, ...) and much less control in the now dead Unix-Sys-Admin, and more especially, NO control whatsoever, - in the end-Users' hands.
Poeterring, and Kay, and ..., are just paid-"Tools" for that end only.
-as Patrick (above) quietly, yet rightfully, mentions: "Systemd" flies directly against the face of Shell-scripting Init sctipts,...

The so-called "Unix/Linux-Sys-Admins" were most definitely required, throughout the 90's,.., early 2000's,...to help BUILD this huge Unix/Linux  Internet/Server/Workstation. ..., whatever infrastructures, and keep it going.
The nature of the beast is always technological progression,..., and unfortunately, that's all.  There was "Death of a Salesman", and now there's "Death of a Sys-Admin".
We can't really hate that though, anymore than anyone could hate change. -It's gonna happen either way, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad, but it's never personal. -Corporate-? -Yes. -Personal? -No.

Personally, (and technologically) I truly hate "systemd".
To me, "systemd" flies AGAINST everything, that is representative of truly friiendly "opensource", and cross-platform, ...
"Systemd" flies against the most important "trust" scenario, within Unix.
In fact, "systemd" is also, not really even "Free", as in "beer", it's just a binary-blob trap, (maybe the NSA like it for that very reason, I dunno?) -if u get my gist?

And, I feel we do NOT need it-(systemd), especially, in the "Unix/Linux" world, never did, never will, but alas,
the computer-"programming"-world, just like the corporate-"programming"-world, is anything but "personal".
smile

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-19 20:25:50)

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#26 2014-04-19 19:10:18

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

If there was ever a time for Mr. Richard Stallman to step up and weigh-in on this very methodical takeover of "systemd" into Linux Distro's, NOW is the time.
But, I guess, as long as "systemd" has the "GPL*" ?  stamp-of-approval, then I guess it must be good?

Last edited by scjet (2014-04-20 04:45:23)

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#27 2014-04-20 05:37:21

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Not sure what Manjaro or Frugalwares views are on systemd.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#28 2014-04-21 19:22:17

dragonauta
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Registered: 2012-05-15
Posts: 313
Website

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Just sharing...
Broken by design: http://ewontfix.com/14/


me
"Politicians and diapers need to be changed often ... and for the same reasons."

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#29 2014-04-22 07:54:14

ArchVortex
Retired
From: Ts’elxweyeqw, Canada
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,465

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

As complexity increases, bug rates go up, as well as the difficulty in diagnosing bugs and the difficulty in fixing them so that the fixes don't break other things. The sheer size and scope of systemd, the haste and laziness in the shitty coding in which it was created and untested, the arrogance of the developers, their inability to accept advice, correction or help, and this "you end users are stupid and we're brilliant so shut up, bend over, and join the collective because we are the Borg and resistance is futile", should have set off alarm bells for the whole Linux community to reject this crap/malware. Instead, kool-aid has been passed around by RedHat, SUSE, et al and drunk by the lemmings waiting for the signal to jump off the cliff into the systemd abyss. Pathetic!!

I believe there will be bigger and worse problems than what just happened with systemd.debug coming for systemd users. This is just my opinion from my experience of 19 years of Linux usage (as of last month).

Addendum edit: Interesting read from LQ Slackware    Linus Torvalds vs Kay Sievers


You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today.
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#30 2014-04-22 08:11:38

ArchVortex
Retired
From: Ts’elxweyeqw, Canada
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,465

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key


You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today.
FP:E5F8 7DBA 8128 9ACB 75F7 7279 BE34 AB66 76D9 16DE
KEY ID:76D916DE
Currently running ArchBang / LFS / OpenSUSE Tumbleweed

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#31 2014-04-22 08:43:50

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Am running a fork of servman under a VM at the moment, it uses busybox, inittab and a rc script, a directory for daemons (rc.d). It will work either with systemd or simply if not load up eudev and dbus-eudev. Modified rc script to how I want and so far can run X, i3, connman (what else do you need!)

servman can be found here

https://github.com/ggjp/servman (he is using sinit again in github but it will work with busybox)

My hacked forked up version is

https://github.com/mrgreen3/busyrc

Am quite prepared to create an iso using it provided I get some help. For now it is something I am messing around with and enjoying it!!!


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#32 2014-04-22 12:22:04

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Hi Dragonauta  thanks for that link. very important and informative post
Especially this

So how should init be done right?

The Unix way: with simple self-contained programs that do one thing and do it well.

First, get everything out of PID 1:

The systemd way: Take advantage of special properties of pid 1 to the maximum extent possible. This leads to ever-expanding scope creep and exacerbates all of the problems described above (and probably many more yet to be discovered).

The right way: Do away with everything special about pid 1 by making pid 1 do nothing but start the real init script and then just reap zombies:

#define _XOPEN_SOURCE 700
#include <signal.h>
#include <unistd.h> int main()
{ sigset_t set; int status; if (getpid() != 1) return 1; sigfillset(&set); sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &set, 0); if (fork()) for (;;) wait(&status); sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, &set, 0); setsid(); setpgid(0, 0); return execve("/etc/rc", (char *[]){ "rc", 0 }, (char *[]){ 0 });
}

Yes, that's really all that belongs in PID 1. Then there's no way it can fail at runtime, and no need to upgrade it once it's successfully running.

Next, from the init script, run a process supervision system outside of PID 1 to manage daemons as immediate child processes (no backgrounding). As mentioned above are several existing choices here. It's not clear to me that any of them are sufficiently polished or robust to satisfy major distributions at this time. But neither is systemd; its backers are just better at sweeping that under the rug.


That busybox was to be interesting  for replacing was known to us from last may http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=4393
but then we  did not have eudev yet.


At Mr Green: have you looked at this: http://ewontfix.com/14/

Great that you are working on this now!!


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#33 2014-04-22 12:45:44

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

In one of that systemd vs kernel discussions, it was mentioned, that systemd will assume dhcp functionality. Or should I say absorb?

Why am I not surprised. All the critics have been prven right with their objections and reasoning so far.

Dragonauta, pablokal, take a look at openrc source, specifically librc. Its interesting. wink

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-22 12:46:21)

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#34 2014-04-22 14:03:27

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

In one of that systemd vs kernel discussions, it was mentioned, that systemd will assume dhcp functionality. Or should I say absorb?

Why am I not surprised. All the critics have been proven right with their objections and reasoning so far.

Maybe it is time to change Linux into Die-tux.


This is interesting about Openrc: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#35 2014-04-22 14:24:27

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

pablokal wrote:

This is interesting about Openrc: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc


This was an interesting read indeed. I was aware that debian remains undecided(?), but these debian people did a fine summary.
Since version 0.12, cgroups have been implemented in openrc.

Anyway, I am happy with gentoo as primary OS, and I don't think, gentoo can be called dead.
But its not everybody's taste, compiling packages from source.

The drama on arch developing, many packages from core pointlessly depend on systemd, but I find util-linux depend on libystemd a dirty move, but very revealing.

Didn't ubuntu reently decide to also switch to systemd, leaving upstart in bad position?

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-22 14:30:36)

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#36 2014-04-22 14:33:15

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Openrc is of course viable, my biggest concern was the sheer number of aur packages required to get it too work. No alternative init system is going to be easy to implement on arch. If an alternative system is to have any real chance arch will need to be forked. A new brighter version that is not tied to a particular init system.

Arch still has many advantages over any other distro, the sheer number of spins offs appearing is testament to that.


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#37 2014-04-22 14:49:10

pablokal
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

It still has, but what our gut-feeling says is that Arch users have run into a trap or a dead end alley; and when the OS will start to get broken, it will lose its following very soon.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
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#38 2014-04-22 15:03:15

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Exactly pablokal.

The pity is, the pkgbuilds are fully capable to handle a proper udev abstraction.
It seem more a political decision than keeping arch linux open to choice.

You know, its like the damn Euro is said to be without alternative, you won't be asked if you like a bunch of usurpers in Brussels. sad

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#39 2014-04-22 20:44:45

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Mr Green wrote:

Openrc is of course viable, my biggest concern was the sheer number of aur packages required to get it too work. No alternative init system is going to be easy to implement on arch. If an alternative system is to have any real chance arch will need to be forked. A new brighter version that is not tied to a particular init system.


I like the idea to take at least a constructive approach to a hypothetical arch based fork, which easily supports and integrates different init systems.

It involves several points to focus on. It had to be well thought out, considering a likely very small team.

Questions which would have to be addressed:

How to integrate the init systems?
What default udev should be run? eudev or a split out udev from systemd?

How would service/rc scripts be provided?
What init systems should be supported?
Either create tons of init specific packages, or supply if possible scripts packages depending on as neutral as possible "base" package?
Or, implement a kind of use flag api for pkgbuilds, which greatly enhances package building for different init.
We would have presets, or templates for different init for pkgbuilds.

It would be some fun to plan such thing.

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-22 20:45:12)

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#40 2014-04-23 00:02:58

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I do like the simplicity of servman with sinit. Not as feature rich as Openrc but easy to work with does not require a load of packages to be built. Minirc comes a close second has more features can work with sinit and does get the job done.

Can see a system where systemd could be used as a fallback for booting during testing of any new system. You have to remember archbang was designed to make trying, using and installing arch easier.

Problems will arise from users testing new bangrc (tentative project name) as development progresses.

Currently servman uses two files, two aur pkgs. and is tiny :-)


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#41 2014-04-23 02:06:20

pablokal
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

indeed the aim for AB was to make a simple and basic openbox easy installation possible.
What would be the best imho would be to make a side project in which after a normal arch install  an as simple a possible alternative init system is installed and systemd service handling is taken over in an as simple as possible way. Then  systemd  dependencies of separate programs via  systemd related lib should be used when possible.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
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#42 2014-04-23 02:30:57

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Post install would be less of a problem, guide, packages, configs. we could host packages required to remove the need for building, also allows us to make it more custom to AB. Really need to decide which system to use and who wants to maintain it.

Basic Todo:

Boot system (might be useful ;-))
Which udev & dbus to use
Daemons services required ... network manager might still be a problem

Biggest problem is if a user wants to install a given package that needs to be run at boot, need a way to allow them to start it until a daemon/service is added. My vote goes to rc.local.

Just some random thoughts

Name may change again but

https://github.com/mrgreen3/busyrc


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#43 2014-04-23 04:56:05

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

The udev question is besides the init key issue.

I will take the next days some time to split out udev from systemd. We'd have eudev and udev packages available.

I think, udev should be default, but eudev an alternative.

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#44 2014-04-23 05:01:12

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

eudev certainly works, building out udev from system might be painful. Not really looked at mdev (part of busybox?). Most of the alternative inits work with systemd, so it is a starting point.


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#45 2014-04-23 05:20:51

xtremyst
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I don't have much time these days and can't help a lot due to lack of knowledge but I'm willing to test any testing ISO.

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#46 2014-04-23 05:38:50

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Separate udev from systemd is painful, but doable. Gentoo does it.
I will give it a try.
Advantages over udev/systemd, only udev is installed, which is enough to compile most packages, except for stupid gnome.
No pollution with suspicious systemd libs and binaries.

I tried mdev, but I didn't like it. It didn't handle lvm too well when I tested it.

Busybox & Openrc Integration doesn't work well.
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-23 05:39:09)

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#47 2014-04-23 05:56:59

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Mr Green wrote:

Openrc is of course viable, my biggest concern was the sheer number of aur packages required to get it too work.

I minimized package requirements, and cleaned it up, openrc-base & openrc-desktop should be enough for standard desktop system. Openrc-sys has become obsolete.
I am currently wating(since 5 days) for AUR TUs to delete my *split pkgs, so I can replace them.

I'll drop *.split suffix, in preparation of AUR split pkg support coming.

The only question is, if there should be a default syslogger, or better leave all syslog packages in misc?

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#48 2014-04-23 05:57:57

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Eudev works ok, busybox well it works for init but not a long term solution.  Know you can build dbus without systemd not so sure about udev, always thought it was built in.


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#49 2014-04-23 06:03:31

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Mr Green wrote:

Eudev works ok, busybox well it works for init but not a long term solution.  Know you can build dbus without systemd not so sure about udev, always thought it was built in.


Its why I have kind of rudimentary use flag api in mind.

Say you want to build dbus.

The pkgbuild would feature something like

import systemd

or

import openrc

You would then have access to some common functions specific for the init.

eg placing init scripts ot service files in a specific dir, or setting flags, eg

--with-systemd

I like how gentoo have solved this issue quite elegantly, I think.

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#50 2014-04-23 06:11:21

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

It is a idea but I cannot say how you would implement it. If you require,import or need a certain init system then I would say it is more of a dependancy unless I am missing the point. If a given repo had alternative init packages in it, then the package itself would drag in required packages. Rather than a user having to build them. Minimum number of extra packages is going to be three, dbus,udev (which ever one) and init system of choice. For most packages systemd would not longer be required. Maintaining a system in this manner is another thing.


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#51 2014-04-23 06:27:11

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I'd be purely for pkgbuild development.
A theoretical arch-bang-dev pkg would do.

Its not user oriented idea, because we would have to enhance makepkg for the user to use it.

No, I mean, no matter how many init systems you plan to  provide, you have to supply end user packages for all these inits. Apart from a missing naming scheme, we could use for packages.
Such use flags would help achieving that, in a more automated manner. No more.

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-23 09:33:19)

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#52 2014-04-23 09:38:58

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I tend to say, lets not support systemd. It complicates lot of stuff.

If we would support only multiple script based init, it was much easier than to accommodate systemd too.
Arch is systemd based, why should a fork support it, the reason for forking?

Except for gnome, all desktops need udev only.

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#53 2014-04-23 12:30:08

pablokal
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

I tend to say, lets not support systemd. It complicates lot of stuff.

I agree. We have to get rid of it as much as possible.

And we have to provide a solution that works generally for the openbox AB setup.
And doesn't need fixes for all kind of specific programs.

And we have to make choices; eventually choose one init solution that has the most future potential.
But as there is so much developing https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 5#p1387375
so maybe it is too early to decide. It's a pity many people are working individually and efforts seem not really coming together.
But on the other hand you can see it as water that is seeping through from all kind of directions and one stream will break through the wall of systemd.
It is really a pity openrc and busybox don't work together: i would like to support (or merge with) the Gentoo developments.
We must give ourselves some time; as long as we agree on our goals we should be able find out what works best and  in the most simple and straightforward way.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#54 2014-04-23 13:06:46

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Just to confuse matters going to test sinit with crux init scripts. Which are very close to old arch initscripts......


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#55 2014-04-23 13:38:19

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

just checked my init iso and it has had 606 downloads in a week roll


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#56 2014-04-23 15:25:37

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

What are the opennox related stuff which doesn't work with openrc?

I use kde, waiting for kf5, so that the kdelibs(systemd depend) drama ends.

Been testing sddm lately.

I would like to invite all testers to use the issue system at github.
https://github.com/udeved/pkgbuilds


Its better than doing it on forum for practical purposes. wink


Mr Green is 600 downloads much compared to standard iso?

Last edited by artoo (2014-04-23 15:29:25)

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#57 2014-04-23 15:32:22

Mr Green
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

In a week it is. It was network manager that we had problems with mostly dbus, not tested spacefm fully. Openbox should work ok....


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#58 2014-04-23 15:40:50

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

Mr Green wrote:

In a week it is. It was network manager that we had problems with mostly dbus, not tested spacefm fully. Openbox should work ok....


Ok, but these two components work. I use them on my system.
Well, it really depends what openrc version you use.

It could be made so, the eudev runscript is provided by default by eudev pkg. But I wanted eudev in AUR independent from init.

I would guess, spacefm works. It has a systemd depend, but its in reality udev it requires.

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#59 2014-04-23 20:13:17

artoo
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Re: Linus banned systemd developer's key

pablokal wrote:

I tend to say, lets not support systemd. It complicates lot of stuff.

I agree. We have to get rid of it as much as possible.

And we have to provide a solution that works generally for the openbox AB setup.
And doesn't need fixes for all kind of specific programs.

And we have to make choices; eventually choose one init solution that has the most future potential.
But as there is so much developing https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 5#p1387375
so maybe it is too early to decide. It's a pity many people are working individually and efforts seem not really coming together.
But on the other hand you can see it as water that is seeping through from all kind of directions and one stream will break through the wall of systemd.
It is really a pity openrc and busybox don't work together: i would like to support (or merge with) the Gentoo developments.
We must give ourselves some time; as long as we agree on our goals we should be able find out what works best and  in the most simple and straightforward way.


You made me interested in getting debian, just for the sake of looking how they deploy as binary distro more than one init. I understood, openrc is in testing phase on debian.

I would go for openrc, most mature alternative, and it runs on many cpus besides i686/x86_64, and it also runs on freebsd. I really like dependency based scripts that work.

As for systemd ban. its why I would go for udev as default, instead of eudev.

Suppose systemd project comes to halt, udev will be most definitely separated again, and survive. eudev would likely halt development too, and merge with udev. My bet.

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