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#1 2013-03-10 06:41:16

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
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Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

http://allanmcrae.com/2013/01/manjaro-l … stability/

Missed this. Very difficult to take his argument serious as it is so biased by his anger to people trying to make Arch accessible.

And real discussion between adherers of the Arch-sect vs non-believers seems impossible.

I think we must find  ways to make the cooperation between AB and Manjaro more profitable for both of us.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#2 2013-03-10 07:41:15

Dan
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Registered: 2013-02-02
Posts: 31
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Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

pablokal wrote:

I think we must find  ways to make the cooperation between AB and Manjaro more profitable for both of us.

I couldn't agree more. I am hoping that this:  http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=4273  takes off in a big way.
I believe collaboration is a positive thing that will benefit us all,

EDIT: As an aside note, I thought the Manjaro team handled it very well.

Last edited by Dan (2013-03-10 07:53:51)

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#3 2013-03-10 08:08:51

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

I think all this negative stuff towards Archlinux and Allan will only damage us in the end. What he says on his own blog is his opinion nothing more. Getting fed up with Arch bashing. Can we not focus on our own glorious project?

To put things into context:

http://allanmcrae.com/2012/12/battle-of … spin-offs/

Allan wrote:

The may be the most painful statement I have ever made… but ArchBang might be the winner!

Also this post

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 3#p1241583


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#4 2013-03-10 09:58:53

CarlD
Member
From: London
Registered: 2013-01-22
Posts: 80

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

Well, personally I am not too happy about the way I handled the blog posts about Manjaro, particularly as it resulted in things turning ugly pretty quickly on our own forum. Thankfully it was over in a flash. Still, you live and you learn.

Mr. Green is also right insofar as however unwelcome we may be made to feel by certain elements in the Arch community, we are still based on and drawing off their efforts. Hopefully things will become more positive over time.

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#5 2013-03-10 10:13:31

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#6 2013-03-10 11:31:08

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK7CLXHSr1M

I love Allan very much

smile

Last edited by scjet (2013-03-10 11:33:09)

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#7 2013-03-10 12:56:33

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

We love you too.... wink


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#8 2013-03-10 15:40:09

CarlD
Member
From: London
Registered: 2013-01-22
Posts: 80

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

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#9 2013-03-10 15:58:22

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
Website

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

I think all this negative stuff towards Archlinux and Allan will only damage us in the end...Getting fed up with Arch bashing.

OK, I will try to respect that, but my aim was not to bash Arch. I don't visit the Arch forums to avoid being/ feeling provoked by what I find difficult about the circle we are in, nolens volens.
I was reading up on manjaro and googling I find this post of his. So I wasn't looking for it but got confronted with it and I then have to share my emotions about it.
I identify with the Manjaro devs in that they try to realize something from a positive and constructive attitude and get bashed in such a cold and haughty manner.
For me personal politics are very important. But that said I will try to avoid negative remarks about Arch devs as much as possible.

Btw this link is dead: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 3#p1241583


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#10 2013-03-10 17:24:26

mike4ca
Happy (Arch|Manjaro)[B,b]ang User
From: Iowa, USA
Registered: 2011-10-17
Posts: 435

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

Can't we all just get along?  I support just plugging along helping each other out and ignoring those that don't like us.  I don't think anything good will come out of the negativity.


Free Software Foundation member 10865

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#11 2013-03-10 22:36:23

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

@pablokal its more likely link does not work as topic is TGN, mind you I am logged in there.

@mike4ca Could not agree more...

@CarlD Nice find....


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#12 2013-03-11 02:13:53

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 505

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

Good vid' Carl. smile

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#13 2013-03-11 08:39:08

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

Thanks for link, I saw it on Arch forums about a week ago, but it seemed broken.? -maybe they fixed it now.

Anyway, it's interesting how the very 1st question, at the end of Allan's talk, was in regards to the "controversial" systemd,..., as well as Arch non-friendly installer,.... -Lol we've heard that enough.
I agree nobody wants to fight about this anymore, it's un-productive, however, it looks like this "controversy" is still not going to go away from obviously many Arch users',..., no matter how hard Allan tries to make systemd the only init-choice.

I do like the on-going filesystem simplicity ideas, not to mention the vid did help me to understand a bit more Arch's package management,...
It's mainly because of Arch rolling-bleeding-edge, pacman, and Arch's quality wiki and documentation that I still stick around.

Last edited by scjet (2013-03-11 08:40:44)

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#14 2013-03-11 15:32:49

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
Website

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

I have been thinking this over and I must restate my opinion on this.
Remarks like :

Can't we all just get along?

and

Getting fed up with Arch bashing.

totally miss the point to my opinion.
There has been a lot of discussion and difference of opinion on about the way things are developing in Arch.
And about the level of tolerance of Arch devs and Arch forums I'm complaining for years and it is relevant to note that the climate isn't changing. To argue that:

What he says on his own blog is his opinion nothing more.

I find terribly naive.
It disregards the leadership role Allan has drawn to himself and the role he plays as opinion maker on the Arch forums.
The reasons why Manjaro is attacked are the same why we are attacked, so I find it relevant for us. And I find it strange nobody spotted or mentioned this before.
It is hard to openly discuss matters on the Arch forums; it is even harder disagreeing with the Arch devs without being ridiculed or put down on a total noob.
So in fact as long as we are part of the Arch ecosystem we are confronted with these two aspects: a difference in opinion on what is the best way Arch should develop itself
and the difficulty to have a discussion about this (or anything really that might be controversial), that is argumentative and open and not authoritarian.
I do want this discussion and I don't want criticism being put down as negative. If criticism is well reasoned it is positive because it is being constructive.
I think it is vital for developing experiences and opinions to have discussions on debatable subjects.
We should not let them shut us up.

If some people don't like the discussion subject or are just not into it; OK, don't take part in it.
But I value the AB forums for its discussions and want to guarantee that everybody  that wants to state his opinion on Arch related good and bad developments is welcome here. If you want to criticize the quality of the discussion that is very OK with me because you may be able to raise the level of discussion, but make it specific.
By putting a link like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j_cFgbcssc (post 5) you are suggesting something that is so generic and common sense that I really don't get what you want with that...if you find it applying to my post ; please specify.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#15 2013-03-11 16:59:19

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 505

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

My understanding is that the Arch dev's make Arch what it is by their input. The more input you have (meaning the harder you work for the Arch community) as a dev, the more influence you have on what Arch is, does & its attitude (from the top).

Allan puts in an enormous amount of excellent work. Therefore he has a lot of influence. As I've stated here before I think, using different words: - some people when they put a lot of time into something, don't like seeing other people using their work in unintended ways.

Their work is provided for their intended audience which is often under their control to a certain extent.

The Arch attitude is that if you don't like how we do things here, then go somewhere else.

Some would prefer that when you go you don't take any of Arch with you. smile

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#16 2013-03-11 17:04:08

CarlD
Member
From: London
Registered: 2013-01-22
Posts: 80

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

@ pablokal:

I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from. However, I learned the hard way that it gets us nowhere, and that it may be better to just let it all slide. Otherwise:

1.) We just get angry, with no effect on the actual causes of that anger
2.) Our forums can become toxic, resulting in a lot of negativity and arguments
3.) It's essentially self-destructive.

So some people slag us off. So what? As far as I am concerned, they don't matter. Our communities / user base do, as they are the ones we are doing it all for. Best to focus on them... and that'll definitely make us happier people smile

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#17 2013-03-12 01:57:29

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

pablokal wrote:

The reasons why Manjaro is attacked are the same why we are attacked, so I find it relevant for us.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here but what does frustrate me is being attacked for things that were rectified *years* ago.  Virtually every thread on the arch forum that mentions archbang says a variant of "they use --force" by default with pacman."   This was true for *one* release a long time ago.  It may even have been the first thing that Mr Green fixed -  I don't remember.

My dilemma is whether we should try and correct that misinformation.  On one hand I think 'yes, people should be corrected for repeating bad information' but on the other hand I think 'they're just towing the party line' so why bother.

Right now I consider 'arch' to be the boss that you don't really connect with but you respect because you're a professional :-)  As long as they let me do my work I'm not going to get overly  involved or upset.

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#18 2013-03-12 02:08:36

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Allan MCRAE attacking Manjaroo january 2013

The pacman -Smurf was removed July 12th 2012 (wiki) but it may have been lurking in our DOC that was shipped with iso. Correcting misinformation we would be on a losing battle as they already have made up their minds. We must be doing something right as downloads of recent release are just crazy! Maybe it was the new wallpaper that did it smile


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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