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#1 2013-01-18 07:48:12

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

[new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Hey guys,

I hope to get some positive reception about this.
I want to start a project named "Arch Extension Project" which aims to provide a repository for all the Arch Linux and Arch Bang user-made scripts.

http://aep.crunchweb.org

It is based on a Wiki in which I'd like you to share your scripts and useful information to improve usability. Please comment your scripts so everybody can read and edit them.

If you have any questions, ask here.


Greetings,
Luca

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#2 2013-01-18 08:18:51

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Thanks, Luca.
It is very quiet here, so don't expect too much steam...


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#3 2013-01-18 10:16:09

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

No Problem, I did not only post here ;-)

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#4 2013-01-18 11:33:01

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

yes thanks Luca, and welcome aboard.
and of course, imho, don't forget to check out the http://bbs.archbang.org/viewforum.php?id=4, there are many useful tips, tutorials,...,  there too, 
which you may have already discovered.

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-18 11:38:58)

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#5 2013-01-18 12:01:14

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Yeah, I discovered that ;-)

Sadly it is not possible for creating new topics in the ArchBang ISO section, is that right? I commented on an existing topic instead.

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#6 2013-01-18 17:30:10

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

I've read the German thread with your ideas.
So I know now a bit what you are trying to do.
After using Arch some three years now I think, that it won't be possible for noobs to maintain Arch, nor to create a fork of Arch that would be able to do that, that will be able to take the bumps away. I have been helping hundreds of people  I quickly saw that they were  not equipped to get away with Arch in the long run. Also what makes or made  Arch good, is/was  only revealed by knowing it under the hood.

If you only look at the systemd  discussion, and how much of the KISS element was lost in Arch the last year, I get very pessimistic. Arch will be a totally dev directed distro more and more with a big flock of sheep like followers that see in each pile of shit of the Holy Devs as a new Revelation.  Arch will burn itself like Icarus because of its Hubris. In my eyes it is burning already and lost much of its former high flight. It is dying..

I'm truly convinced that Arch isn't the distro to take as starting point for what you are trying to do; the Linux distro at the moment that comes most near to what you want is LMDE, I guess.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#7 2013-01-18 18:22:02

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

I saw also that the Arch project is dying, as the arrogance of the community rises and rises. You know, I used Arch like 5 years ago and left because of this and I was nearly about to leave again. But thankfully there are distros/projects like ArchBang, Chakra or Manjaro which aim to take a new view. But I think that moving away from Arch Linux itself would be a wrong turn.

Maybe I'll "save" Arch Linux if the core devs go wilder and "burn their herd" by buying it, like Mark Shuttleworth did with Ubuntu. He also doesn't know what to do and took Desktop Linux to a new level, even if I don't like him. Only that he tries to become the independent software Hitler and I am not.

I know LMDE, but this also is just a distribution based on Debian. The world doesn't need another Debian distribution, as crunchbang and LMDE already fill that gap and you could also take just the [testing]-Repo of Debian to get cutting-edge software (LMDE does nothing more).

If the AEP is successful, the scripts could easily be ported to or even work without effort on other distributions like Debian as I want to take both a very low-level and a vanilla approach. Meaning that I want to develop scripts and tools which base on a standard Linux install (Gentoo and LFS are much more complicated than Arch, I think) and give the Linux community something back instead of developing only distribution-specific packages.

I want the AEP to be what the Arch community itself can't fulfil. As you said, "Arch will burn itself like Icarus because of its hybris". I want to stop that.


EDIT: tl;dr: I don't want to take Debian as it is not designed as a rolling release distribution.

Last edited by phre4k (2013-01-18 18:26:38)

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#8 2013-01-19 04:43:17

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Have you given thought on how it went with the systemd introduction?
As soon as your project might get successful, they will do anything to sabotage it by taking technical decisions that will be difficult to circumvent.
I wouldn't be surprised that they were hoping to get rid of AB too and that decisions have been influenced by that.

Another thing, your strategy is quite wrong. You seem quite oblivious to the social interactions in the Arch community but I have seen so many fine men kaltgestellt.
You should have started like for instance IgnorantGuru with useful (small) contributions and prove your worth as coder and then slowly, slowly get more open on your intentions; now you are known  for what you are trying to accomplish and they are hostile towards that and you will be targeted whenever they can.

I would advise you to stop any effort in getting support from the Arch community and start coding and try to get supporters on the results of what you can show.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#9 2013-01-19 11:33:45

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

... even just before systemd,
and just as a small example,
look at ALL the work "Dieter" & company put into his "AIF" (Automated Installation Framework) for years, for Arch.
AIF may have been a small project, but still, back in the day, it was the FIRST thing you saw after you booted Arch.
And yet despite that, almost overnight, and I agree with you and Pablo here, those "Hubris"-infected Devs@Arch dumped "AIF" -like a hot potato.
Dieter near-the-end got almost ZERO help from those dev's. Therefore Dieter likely had no choice but to give up, err I mean, drop it. ?

Notwithstanding, and up to that point, AIF, in most cases worked beautifully, for ME, and it was very manageable, basically just a bunch-of sh/bash scripts that made the task of Installing/Netinstalling Arch, via CLI, just a little simpler.
The "....AIF is too hard to maintain..., and thus we had to move it to AUR for now, ..." <- excuse, by those Arch-devs, was just plain ridiculous. 

I am definitely NOT trying to discourage you here, but like i said, just look at the "raw deal" they gave dieter. ?
I fear you will not get much helpful support from "those" Arch devs, as they exist nowadays'.

BTW: I would love to see "OpenRC" replace "systemD"'uh ?, but I regretfully, have not been keeping up with the latest OpenRC efforts within Arch.

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-19 11:58:51)

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#10 2013-01-19 14:24:04

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Well, I try to be independent. I won't use neither my Nickname phre4k nor k0tb4tzen (German insider joke btw) for contributing the scripts. I won't post them in the Arch Forum, the only thing I'll do is submitting AUR PKGBUILDs as I did the whole time.

When the project has a few supporters I will definitely host a repository to make things easier, but if I am alone a repo is a time-consuming, not necessary side-project I won't be able to maintain.

I want to resurrect the AIF as CrunchBang did with the CB installer. Maybe I will be able to connect both to make things easier. If the Arch devs changed system relevant things so the AIF I will provide won't work anymore, they'd shoot themselves in their knees as the most Archers won't want to fight a war of ideologies but have a working system.

However, I also want to get rid of the "elite" attitude in the Arch community. It's disgusting.


EDIT: Maybe, if I see a reasonable alternative for systemd, I will provide scripts and support for it in Arch. At the moment I am very contempt with systemd. What disadvantages do you see in systemd which would be better in OpenRC?

Last edited by phre4k (2013-01-19 14:25:53)

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#11 2013-01-19 15:52:53

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

At the moment I am very content with systemd. What disadvantages do you see in systemd which would be better in OpenRC?

We had a very elaborate discussion on the forums about that. Read it here:
http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=3262  and
http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=3308


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#12 2013-01-20 01:50:46

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

AIF was dropped as it was far too much to maintain. Creating a script that fulfils the complexities of any installation is difficult, more so with a rolling release distro such as Arch. Know first hand the problems you face from working on abinstall. Arch will never accept ArchBang or any other Arch based iso simply because it breaks the 'Arch Way' not that we [iso creators of extreme excellence] use tools created for their own install media is beside the point.

Smallest Arch Installer

#!/bin/bash
pacstrap /mnt base syslinux
genfstab -p /mnt >> /mnt/etc/fstab
arch-chroot /mnt mkinitcpio -p linux
arch-chroot /mnt syslinux-install_update -iam

Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#13 2013-01-20 10:40:15

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

"AIF" even though complex and hard to maintain, was not near as hard or complex to implement as was "systemd", with the "still continual" replacements to rc's, init's,... not to mention ten's of thousands of packages,...
The Dev's gave "systemd" a 110% effort, and still do. AIF was simply kicked out the door.
They probably couldn't, which led to wouldn't, deal with a grub2 + systemd,..., + AIF,... all at once. So, AIF was given the boot.
Arch, at that point, stopped becoming about "choice".

AIF, in the past, when used purely as an Arch (semi-automated) "Netinstall", worked great for the year or so that I played with it.
With a little work however, (Netinstall-only), all the above can easily be incorporated into a:
run "/arch/setup"
Done.

I agree that a "netinstall" is much easier to maintain, on a Rolling-Thunder-Release like Arch, compared to the increasing complexities of a CDLive/abinstaller.
Mostly because the CDLive/abinstaller is sometimes out-of-date 3 weeks after it's created ? -again, due to the bleeding/changing/rolling-release nature of Arch.

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-20 10:57:25)

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#14 2013-01-20 10:55:22

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

I agree that a "netinstall" is much easier to maintain, on a Rolling-Release, than a CDLive/abinstaller.

Only true if said installer is up to date

Mostly because the CDLive/abinstaller is sometimes out-of-date 3 weeks after it's created ?

Not true the iso will always be up to date, only once you install it does it become mouldy! wink


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#15 2013-01-20 11:01:24

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Mr Green wrote:

Not true the iso will always be up to date, only once you install it does it become mouldy! wink

ok, well ya, that's what I meant  ... cool

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-20 11:04:24)

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#16 2013-01-20 11:15:19

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

In the battle of installers of course a net based one will always be the best option. Just feel that including one on iso will fail simply as you say iso gets out of date and Arch changes. I would prefer to run a basic installer and leave rest to user. Have nothing against AIF in any shape or form, know of one great and very respected Arch user that uses it over arch-install-scripts.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#17 2013-01-20 11:40:22

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

AIF, is unfortunately dead.
But as far as "installers' go,
It depends on the User(s), for ALL general-desktop use, which is most ppl imho, a CD-Live is clearly the better/best option.
I can carry a full-blown DE/WM-GUI archbang "Live" with me, be it on CD, usb, ext,HDD, ... tape,.. whatever, and I don't even have to "install" it - to either enjoy it, or just show-it-off.
But, I can't do that with a bare-bones Netinstall image; well yes we can, but it's basically CLI-only, ..., until you install it.
EDIT:  "netinstall" may be better "administratively", but CD/Live is better "aesthetically", all 'round.

If "netinstall" was truly the better option, all-the-time, then I probably wouldn't even be here. <- no comments please !

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-20 11:52:45)

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#18 2013-01-20 13:03:48

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

I might clarify my interpretation of netinstaller. It would be similar to abinstall but instead of copying files from iso it would grab up to date files from repos. Of course this is subject to a working network connection, but if you are going to use Arch you are for the best part going to need one.

Here lies the dilemma if you ship an iso with netinstall it will either quickly go out of date or something in Arch will break it.

Abinstall does what it needs to do to install Arch, from then on it is up to the user to update and maintain as they see fit.

then I probably wouldn't even be here. <- no comments please !

Tempted!!!! smile


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#19 2013-01-20 13:29:30

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Well, in that case being that, as you say,  "... netinstall it will either quickly go out of date or something in Arch will break it. "',
then why not just incorporate the Best of all worlds' choices, meaning,  Live, and/or Netinstall of AB, and let's call in "abnetinstall" script(s).

Now that would be be "tempting".

It'll be sort-of like a McCartney's "Live or Let Netinstall" rendition, and that way, nobody dies', if they don't want to.

(I'm actually a John Lennon fan anyway).
= Dream Scenario # 9

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-20 13:39:15)

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#20 2013-01-20 13:56:17

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Including a netinstaller in ArchBang would cause more problems than it would solve. It would work right up until Arch changes a package name or an update needs user interaction. If you could load up an installer via a package then possibly might have a chance granted that script was up to date. We have in some ways created problems by doing too much for end user. Simplifying what we install and how far we configure it would reduce problems. After all most users will more than likely want to run Xfarce4 over Openbox or use Chrome over Firefox. A base install, X and possibly syslinux would be a better netinstall option.

Currently listening to Sumerian Sands (The Silence) by Absu


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#21 2013-01-20 15:21:01

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Mr Green wrote:

... Simplifying what we install and how far we configure it would reduce problems. ...

Currently listening to Sumerian Sands (The Silence) by Absu

cool.
and THAT, in a nutshell, says it ALL, kiss-wise.
and this ain't "Rush", but it still is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok9wkaH3iqg
smile

Last edited by scjet (2013-01-20 15:30:03)

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#22 2013-01-20 16:27:40

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

Why don't you use staged packaging like Manjaro does? You can have your own repository...
They also have an OpenBox version now. As it is relatively new, ArchBang may cooperate. I don't think Archers should work against each others. The hipster Arch users do so. I use Arch since 5 years now and I sense that the community and the Distro as itself isn't as friendly as it was to new users.

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#23 2013-01-21 21:49:04

fschiff
Member
Registered: 2011-04-04
Posts: 31

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

If you don't backport or perform extensive testing on what you've kept back, the staged packaging is sorta useless.

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#24 2013-01-22 11:36:49

phre4k
Member
Registered: 2013-01-18
Posts: 12

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

I would prefer extensive testing. What does the Arch (Bang) Community need to make that happen?

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#25 2013-01-22 12:21:10

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: [new] Arch Extension Project - make your Arch install rock!

As we are a small distro having our own repo would not really help. It would take a lot of work for very little gain. Currently we only run ~10 packages that are from AUR. Everything else comes from main Arch repos.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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