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#1 2012-12-03 06:42:33

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,352

UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

http://www.area536.com/blog/uefi-secure … computing/

The potential bonuses of replacing our old antiquated 30-year-old PC BIOS,... , with a newer standard, and more powerful  "secure" one, that is more akin to our 64-bit performance requirements,..., can NOT be under-stated.
Ok, that I understand.
And, alot of this is explained by the above link, as well as many other (googled) similar ones, over the last year few years or so.

I admit, that I don't know enough about this UEFI-crap yet, since the only UEFI device I have ever owned, is this new laptop I'm typing on right now.
I finally installed archbang, but NOT until I semi-"disabled" UEFI secure-boot.
I could've just used UEFI boot cd. Most Linux distro's, if not all, have that ability. But I honestly didn't know.

However, here's what I do know, for a fact.
The ONLY way I could "disable" or change this new Microsoft (co-called)"Secure-boot" UEFI-firmware, is by being forced to go through, yep, you guessed it:
Windows 8sad

Windows 8 -> (the new hidden - LoL)Control Panel -> PC Settings -> General -> Advanced Setup -> Troubleshooting -> UEFI-Firmware settings, ..., and then finally click on the tiny "Are you sure you want to Restart into UEFI-firmware Settings ?" -> then finally again, click "Yes"  :( 

...arghh whatever.

That's right, my Notebook's User Manual explicitly says: "press "F2" to get into BIOS", but unfortunately, this new (u)EFI disables the keyboard, initially, unless of course, I am lucky enough to hit the "F2" at the exact 100 milliseconds before it is able to disable/"secure" it.
I actually got into BIOS (err umm the new UEFI-Firmware settings) by accidently hitting the "F2" key at just the right time, but only after about 12 tries/reboots. Yes, I know, and it took me a long time. ?!

See what I mean though ?

The above link to that "Blog" brings out my deepest fears concerning the replaceable "commodity" market that PC's, just like Tablets are now, going to become.
Ya I know Linux has efi abililty now, sort-of, ... whatever.

I just want to know why ALL this was done WITHOUT even consulting with Linux, BSD, ..., in the first place ?!

I mean, it's also BECAUSE of Linux, BSD, ...,  too, that ALL these (PC) Hardware Manufacturers are able to exist and flourish today.
Linux obviously didn't hurt PC sales, over all these years' -lol.
I have worked in a few Server rooms (mostly IT/Networking/Admin support), over the years, and Linux, Solaris, BSD, HP-UX,... outnumbered Windows hardware by about 20:1 !

Obviously, Microsoft, and "others" should have been dragged, once again, into the Supreme Court for ANTI-Trust, ANTI-Competitive Violations because of the way they "tried" to implement "their" UEFI malware, just like they were over "IE" years ago.
So what happened this time ?
Oh ya, Microsoft handed us a "cookie" for their UEFI -wow, how $@%!-in'-generous of them.
This ain't no little web-browser arguement, like in the past.
This UEFI/Bios/Firmware control is one the most important parts of ANY computing device.
I don't get it.
Why is Microsoft in sole control over this ?

mmm, I guess now that any "real" competitors like "Sun Microsystems, ..." are ALL dead and gone, there is no one really left with that kinda muscle to challenge Microsofts' obvious predatory illegalities.

In other words,
As long as Microsoft/Apple/..., (and ALL their hardware buddies) are allowed to force us to BUY "hardware" devices whenever "they" want to, then the "FREE" Linux's, BSD's, ...,  will also be allowed to "play".  But only if these "FREE" Unix OS's stay out of Microsoft's/Apple's/... way !

Once again, Microsoft is in the Driver's Seat for ALL other Free OS's, but this time it's worse, M$ wants the "Hardware" Driver's Seat !
And "that" is just dam sad.

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 07:55:55)


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#2 2012-12-03 07:01:17

handy
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Google/Motorola/Samsung aren't letting MS/Apple walk all over them. Far from it, particularly in Google-Motorola's cases:

http://www.groklaw.net/index.php

Both Red Hat & Ubuntu have strategies for dealing with the MS UEFI shit (they both don't agree with each other's methods though of course) & I know that Ubuntu for one is not happy with their method or the whole situation either. It will be interesting to see how it pans in the future.

Last edited by handy (2012-12-03 07:01:55)

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#3 2012-12-03 07:04:10

dragonauta
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Hi, did you see Matthew Garret's blog entry?
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20303.html

He managed to build a uefi bootloader, it called "shim" and released it under BSD license

Now we can add it to AB and make it uefi compatible.


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#4 2012-12-03 07:10:39

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Ya sure, have you installed Linux in your Andriod/Motorola/Samsung lately ???
Seriously, this is pathetic.
Microsoft treets ALL Linux distro's the same: It's called "Divide and Conquer" my friends'. -but we all know that.

Don't get me wrong, it's great having hardware choices like androids/motorola/.... but it should've benn agreed on a bit better, UEFI-wise, especially with the popular Linux free-OS's.

Like I said, maybe I really don't fully understand "all" the implications here regarding UEFI and it's compliance to "who" ?

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 07:18:49)


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#5 2012-12-03 07:16:58

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

@scjet You bought a windows 8 laptop! roll

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#6 2012-12-03 07:21:41

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Mr Green wrote:

@scjet You bought a windows 8 laptop! roll

Yes, I bought it really for the hardware, didn't know Win8 is that painful.
And NOW, I need a Microsoft Ignition "Key" to drive my own Car, that I already PAID for !!!???  -Lol.

It's sadly comical.

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 07:22:34)


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#7 2012-12-03 07:24:00

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Basically with no bios can you still boot from say usb? [via windows] Does ArchBang then install as normal or did you have to use gparted [gpt!]

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#8 2012-12-03 07:27:50

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

ok, Here's what I really want to do.
I want to blow away Windows 8, completely off of this Laptop. I want to re-partion the entire disk to what I want install on it, namely -half of the drive for Linux, and the other half for BSD later.

Can I safely do this ?, and will the dam thing still boot ?

I gotta research this some more, before I accidentally turn this into a $700 book-end. sad

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 07:29:51)


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#9 2012-12-03 07:37:36

scjet
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Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Mr Green wrote:

Basically with no bios can you still boot from say usb? [via windows] Does ArchBang then install as normal or did you have to use gparted [gpt!]

Nope, I installed a 2nd HDD (it has 2 bays), and I installed Archbang and then installed UbuntuStudio 12.10 for now (it has UEFI compatability mode), onto that 2nd (non-Windows8) hdd.

So now, I simply use Ubuntu's Boot menu (which see' s ArchBang) to boot up Archbang.

I realize this is a stupid way to do it, but everything is seen perfectly, and everything (Linux-wise) is runnin' great on this now.

Eventually, I want to hopefully/safely blow away Windows 8 - permanently.

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 08:08:47)


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#10 2012-12-03 07:52:30

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

dragonauta wrote:

Hi, did you see Matthew Garret's blog entry?
http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/20303.html

He managed to build a uefi bootloader, it called "shim" and released it under BSD license

Now we can add it to AB and make it uefi compatible.


Umm
"...you'll need to accept my assurance that the private key was deleted immediately after the build was completed. Other than that..."
yikes !

Thanks anyway, and I check it out more in depth, but... ?


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#11 2012-12-03 08:02:47

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

handy wrote:

Google/Motorola/Samsung aren't letting MS/Apple walk all over them. Far from it, particularly in Google-Motorola's cases:

http://www.groklaw.net/index.php

Both Red Hat & Ubuntu have strategies for dealing with the MS UEFI shit (they both don't agree with each other's methods though of course) & I know that Ubuntu for one is not happy with their method or the whole situation either. It will be interesting to see how it pans in the future.

@Handy, LoL, you always pop-up with the interesting legal reads.


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#12 2012-12-03 08:05:09

Mr Green
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#13 2012-12-03 08:12:05

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Well, I already knew that was there, and I'm sure it'll work, and yes (u're right), it looks like I will have no choice but to do it the Arch-UEFI way ?

...just sayin... that this M$-UEFI scenario, in the long run, is a thousand-fold worse than "systemd" could ever be,
so far, imho.

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 08:18:15)


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#14 2012-12-03 08:31:06

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

You have to either buy a laptop that already has Ubuntu on it or jump through hoops to get Arch installed. What sort of drive does it have? presume its an SSD

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#15 2012-12-03 08:31:27

scjet
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Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

In closing, (regarding Post #1) let's name the obvious COWARDS (or co-offenders) here, namely Intel, AMD, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, ...., need I go on ?
NONE of them had the "balls" to stand up to microsoft and just say hey, no, this uefi implementaion will be a new implementation for ALL OS's, ..., and not any "ONE" OS.
That is, none of them had the "balls",...., but ALL of them "together" could have done it, and thus made a very huge and positive impact for us and them. !
It would have made "hardware computing devices", of ALL kinds, especially the everyday PC/Laptop that much more qualitatively accessible, for everyone (aka "Consumers").
But they didn't.

So, therefore, they are in essence, not only still stupid, but they're ALL right back where they always were.
- At the "Mercy of Microsoft" !
And now that Microsoft is "building" it's own "hardware", Microsoft doesn't even NEED them anymore.
So they "snafu'd" themselves, AND us, for absolutely nothing !  Ha ha.

Free Enterprise you say ?, Corporate Capitalism you call it ?, naaa it's just Monopolization based on Tyranny.

And to think, that "they" thought we were the Lemmings?: wait-a-minute, I did in fact buy the dam thing,  but well u know what I mean, as you're even more glad that I'm finally off my soapbox.

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 08:57:32)


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#16 2012-12-03 08:47:13

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Mr Green wrote:

You have to either buy a laptop that already has Ubuntu on it or jump through hoops to get Arch installed. What sort of drive does it have? presume its an SSD

EDIT: ya I looked into some of them, like system76, ...., but NONE of them had 17.3", or greater display's (at a reasonable price), and that was one of my requirements.

I'm still waiting for my SSD, but for now, I just took the 500Gig (7200rpm) drive out of my old "dead" "Dell Precision M90" Laptop.
But anyway, this notebook works fine, and atleast as good as any System76/Ubuntu pre-installed Laptop,
-as can be seen here: http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?pid=20048#p20048

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 09:16:50)


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#17 2012-12-03 09:13:34

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

This is more of a thought than a question, what happens when you need to repair Windows install?

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#18 2012-12-03 09:21:08

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Mr Green wrote:

This is more of a thought than a question, what happens when you need to repair Windows install?

I don't have the link right now, but there was a heated discussion on this, i think on Guru3D?, and PC Technician's were complaining about that exact "scenario" and that customers will not pay more money for the extra work involved, ... , to repair a Windows 8 install?
  But yep, that's a definite concern for small Computer store Owner's, especially for the ones that are just trying to stay afloat these days.

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-03 09:25:21)


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#19 2012-12-03 19:29:12

handy
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Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 499

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

scjet wrote:

In closing, (regarding Post #1) let's name the obvious COWARDS (or co-offenders) here, namely Intel, AMD, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, ...., need I go on ?
NONE of them had the "balls" to stand up to microsoft and just say hey, no, this uefi implementaion will be a new implementation for ALL OS's, ..., and not any "ONE" OS.
That is, none of them had the "balls",...., but ALL of them "together" could have done it, and thus made a very huge and positive impact for us and them. !
It would have made "hardware computing devices", of ALL kinds, especially the everyday PC/Laptop that much more qualitatively accessible, for everyone (aka "Consumers").
But they didn't.

So, therefore, they are in essence, not only still stupid, but they're ALL right back where they always were.
- At the "Mercy of Microsoft" !
And now that Microsoft is "building" it's own "hardware", Microsoft doesn't even NEED them anymore.
So they "snafu'd" themselves, AND us, for absolutely nothing !  Ha ha.

Free Enterprise you say ?, Corporate Capitalism you call it ?, naaa it's just Monopolization based on Tyranny.

And to think, that "they" thought we were the Lemmings?: wait-a-minute, I did in fact buy the dam thing,  but well u know what I mean, as you're even more glad that I'm finally off my soapbox.

scjet, I would expect that MS gave all those hardware manufacturers you mentioned a financial incentive to implement "their" brand of UEFI.

I don't know what the numbers would likely be, but if they gave even 1% discount on Win8, or Win8 & Office or whatever, with the number of machines that these guys produce & sell even a 1% discount may be enough for the number crunchers in the hardware companies to say go for it.

Last edited by handy (2012-12-03 19:30:25)

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#20 2012-12-10 06:33:23

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

This gets me thinking if [as I have in the past] wanted to update bios for extra features or updates do I still need to go via Windows?

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#21 2012-12-10 09:54:53

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

@Mr. G

well, on my notebook,
Yes, with Microsoft's uefi, and Secure Boot, you will definitely have to go through Windows to update/change uefi/BIOS firmware settings,...

Having a Linux compatible EFI built-in support (a cookie-key from Microsoft), only allows you to "boot Linux securely,....", depending on their method, but NO, it won't (atleast not on mine), be able to make changes/upgrades directly to the bios/uefi, unless of course the manufacturere (in my case, Asus) provides me a Linux app to do that ? which hardly any do, these days.
then again, there is always the Flash/Q-Flash/... workarounds to upgrade your uefi/Bios ?, but not sure about all cases yet...

Secure Boot and a newer BIOS is a great idea, and unfortunately, it's been a long time comin', for PC's/Motherboards/Notebooks/...
But sadly, all of this UEFI crap was implemented the "Microsoft way", or the "highway", You pick one. -which is just wrong.

But I'm not sure about PC components like Motherboards, if they will implement them like that, or atleast offer a "disable" secure-boot, and "enable" CSM Modules.
I haven't needed to upgrade any of my Motherboards yet, so I dunno ?
Thankfully my new notebook finally has the CSM Module fix (from latest uefi/bios upgrade). -But that simply makes "Secure Boot" virtually useless, and pointless, defeating the whole purpose, and I'm still STUCK with Windows 8 ! -yuk sad

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-10 10:15:03)


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#22 2012-12-10 10:28:43

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Gentoo seems to have the best explanation/docs on UEFI implementations, thus far:
http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/UEFI


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#23 2012-12-10 10:46:09

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Even with you switching drives you still do not have full control?

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#24 2012-12-11 03:43:46

scjet
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Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Mr Green wrote:

Even with you switching drives you still do not have full control?

ya, With the "CSM Module" enabled, I have full control of whatever OS I want to boot off of the 2nd hdd.
I've also squeezed Windsow 8 into half of the 1st hdd, so that I have a spare partition there now too.
However, for now, I have to set the 2nd hdd (as default boot device), to boot my archbang and other distro's in a non-uefi mode. Of course, that also means I can NOT boot Windows 8 from the 2nd hdd, although I don't really care.

whenver I finnally setup a compliant UEFI-boot thingy's in Linux I'll be able to boot into them via uefi.
Also, there is NO <F12>, or <F*>. Method to Boot off the fly, like there used to be with older BIOS's.
Sadly, that is now gone too, atleast as far as I know, until I uefi/Secure Boot every OS that I want, but even then ?!
-------------------------------------------------

In conclusion, I will have to uefi all my other OS's, the "Microsoft UEFI way" if I want my "convenience" Booting back.
Microsoft's UEFI/"Secure Boot" is just a controlling, pathetic, piece of shit !, <-just like Win8, and we're all stuck with it. It is what it is.

How can I, for example, compare this -> http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=3761 <- to any Microsoft OS ?!! -I'd have to be nutz.
Anyone who thinks otherwise, is phsycotic, and/or insane, and/or has too much wasteful money-(see 1st two), and/or is waving the right FLAG for the WRONG reasons. ?
I'm also surprised why Mr. Torvalds hasn't given the "finger" to M$'s "Secure Boot" too. mmm ?
Comon' now !?

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-11 07:43:44)


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#25 2012-12-11 07:29:17

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

anyway, due to this fact of where the "new" hardware (mostly laptops,...) are going with all this ?
... the next CD-Live "ArchBang 2013.*" will definitely have to incorporate a uefi-compliant OS, atleast for post-Installation reasons', if not, then atleast some instructions in the new "Guide" of how to do it.
tongue

Last edited by scjet (2012-12-11 08:36:17)


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#26 2012-12-11 10:27:16

Mr Green
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#27 2013-02-05 22:00:12

AnonKS
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Posts: 9

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Thinking about upgrading the bios, do Asus uefi motherboards have ez flash? I've got a 2 year old Asus mobo and it can flash the bios from within bios from a USB stick. If it has ez flash, then you shouldn't need window$ to flash new firmware.

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#28 2013-02-06 08:26:48

scjet
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Posts: 1,352

Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/ … 93958.html

"anti-trust", "anti-competitive", ..., anyone ?
LoL, this is getting ridiculously worse.

I guess if Wall Street can get away with it, then so can Micro$oft, and "friends" ?
sad


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#29 2013-02-06 09:25:08

Mr Green
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

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#30 2013-02-06 10:32:41

scjet
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Re: UEFI : so who's in "control" ?

Yes, and combined with this:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/1 … are-laptop

It would even be more interesting.


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