You are not logged in.

#1 2012-04-04 09:46:58

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

between the wiki and the GUI

I started this thread as a respons to ArchVortex's reply in the "What other Linux OS are you running..." thread. After trying Slacko, I mentioned that it's "windows are decorated with lenghty explanatory notes" and that I personally believe Arch is neglecting informing the user even in the wiki by cutting some corners, while claiming that it prefers documentation over automation and .config files over GUIs.

First. The arch community doesn't have to adjust to my preferences, I'm just trying to give constructive feedback, I'm sure Arch works for you and even for me, mostly.
Secondly. If those involved in writting the wiki will skip a little less of the "obvious" at least here on AB, after reading this, I am happy.
Thirdly. I'm talking about little things that save us time.
Fourtly.. Puppy's over-annotation is a bad example.

ArchVortex wrote:

Nothing wrong with using Puppy as long as users remember that they are operating as root always. I use Puppy to resurrect old and dead computers that can't even run Windows XP or probably couldn't run XP well 9 years ago.

distrohopperarched wrote:

If arch would take documentation seriously, we would have something similar compensating for the lack of GUIs.

There is nothing wrong with Arch documentation, it is the best documentation of any Linux OS. Gentoo next. The problem is with the user. If the user is not competent enough to understand or figure out the documentation then they should go back to some easy Linux OS like Bumtu or Mint or even Windows. Arch is not for everyone. Same with Gentoo. If they can't use a system without GUI's then use one that has them. Users need to adjust and adapt to use Arch and Gentoo, not complain that Arch and Gentoo should change to suit the needs of incompetent user.

If there's nothing wrong with Puppy there's nothing wrong with Arch either. But neither is perfect, except if we don't care for the details. I respect your opinion and agree that the wiki is good and I won't argue with a more experienced but this curious user would like to gain "competency" and he can't with these wiki's because people probably forget to define things - it's made by the, and for the advanced/experienced user and I find myself in a maze. So, I'm not saying the wiki is bad - I'm saying some "indicators" would help the new guys in "town" find their way more quickly. The wiki is great - but improvable.

Yes I understand this is a distro for more versatile people, but do I really have to go to the wiki to set up my clock ? Adjusting a clock manually is impossible without a wiki, "apropos clock/time" will return nothing and neither will "pacman -Qs clock" be more helpful. Typing cl and TAB doesn't help since the command is hwclock - but you can't find that unless it's you already know what you are looking for... Btw, a few weeks ago I wanted to adjust my clock to a timeserver. I won't go into detail now but I ended up giving up, after trying 3 packages. Puppy synced time with 2 clicks. Ab is great - but improvable.

Also, I'm not at all "complaining" about the lack of a GUI, I enjoy AB's simplistic aproach when it works - what I am saying is that at least a "hint" here and there, like a working "apropos", would make life easier. Am I incompentent because I can't find the "hwclock" command ? How do competent users do it ?

Is going to the wiki for just adjusting time in agreement with KISS ?...

Last edited by distrohopperarched (2012-04-04 10:34:05)

Offline

#2 2012-04-04 13:09:06

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Batu, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,450

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

distrohopperarched wrote:

If there's nothing wrong with Puppy there's nothing wrong with Arch either.

I said "Nothing wrong with using Puppy," not that there's nothing wrong with Puppy. Big difference!! I'll stop here not waste anymore of my time roll


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!

Offline

#3 2012-04-04 15:00:33

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 2,941
Website

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

The main trick is to define the right questions. And to search at the right places.
Think!
About 90 % of the questions asked here on the forums can be answered by just typing the keywords from error messages or
keywords regarding the topic when searching these forums, the Archwiki or the Arch forums or google.
I find it unbelievable who many users ask hardware related questions without giving details about their hardware and the drivers that are in use for it nor provide other relevant information like software version, update history or relevant error messages.
Like they are walking in misty clouds.
I will never claim to have all the answers, but when I'm getting better, it is  by excluding what is relevant and irrelevant when facing a certain issue.
That is something everybody can train himself to do.

I think being competent is having a straightforward approach to your problem and getting an insight with what you are dealing with;
for example setting the clock is a simple installation aspect: I think nearly everything around installation is dealt with in the beginners guide: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide
You should know that guide; not by heart, but know what information you can find there.
We can't force people to study the basics of Arch Linux; but that is really simply necessary to maintain Arch.
The main educational aspect of Arch is fostering competency and independence. Self-reliance.
Going from being a passive consumer to becoming an active mechanic.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

Offline

#4 2012-04-05 04:20:24

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

The Begginers Guide can teach you a lot and is good that we have one. But I'm not having trouble installing Arch, I'm having uneccessary trips to the wiki for setting a clock manually...

But let's take this example, the begginers guide mentions hwclock here:

Setting time in a Windows dual boot setup

If you are setting up a dual-boot with Windows on your system, you have two options:

    Recommended: Set Arch Linux to UTC and make Windows use UTC too

...

    Not recommended: Set Arch Linux to localtime and later (in Configure the system) remove hwclock from the DAEMONS array in /etc/rc.conf (Windows will take care of hardware clock corrections).

First off, I'm not dual-booting so I don't think I'd even read this.
Secondly, hwclock or hardware clock is nowhere defined.
Thirdly I don't have a hwclock daemon in /etc/rc.conf.

The clock thing is just ONE example.

The "nicest" part we all seem to ignore is that without an internet connection you can't access the wiki = game over.

You are both off topic. You both have the impression I'm complaining. I'm NOT asking help me set my clock - this is the offtopic section.

Last edited by distrohopperarched (2012-04-05 07:00:30)

Offline

#5 2012-04-05 06:05:17

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Batu, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,450

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

distrohopperarched wrote:

The "nicest" part we all seem to ignore is that without an internet connection you can't access the wiki = game over.

http://www.archlinux.org/packages/commu … wiki-lite/

info about it at http://kmkeen.com/arch-wiki-lite/


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!

Offline

#6 2012-04-05 06:23:05

Mr Green
Iso Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 4,744

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

Might include it in next iso release smile


Follow me on twitter @mrgreen_linux

Offline

#7 2012-04-05 14:44:03

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

From the "Forum etiquette" page of the Archwiki, point 3...

Threads stating the equivalent of "there is a problem with the Arch system and methodology, we need to discuss it" have been repeatedly proven ineffective and inflammatory and will usually be locked after a warning from the moderation team. Arch is a Do It Yourself community. If you have identified a systemic issue, find a solution that works for you, implement it, then post.

Furthermore, questioning or discussing the methods used by the Arch Linux development team will be monitored closely and locked if deemed unhelpful and/or unproductive. Harsh, unproductive criticism is also uncalled for.

If you have a question regarding Arch development, please ensure that your topic poses a specific question and be open-minded to responses. If possible, provide a solution or partial solution. Submitting code and patches for discussion is always more pragmatic than asking others to do it for you.


Good wiki. I said that before. I'll try to be specific.

@Mr Green. I like the idea.

Searching for "Clock" on the wiki returns irrelevant results. After reading the "Time" page, it seems that the correct command isn't "hwclock" but "date".

So, on topic and specifically - I don't think it has to be an adventure to get to it. Maybe my google foo is weak or maybe the wiki's search engine is. Maybe apropos isn't the right tool either. But not even pacman -Qs ?...

Am I the only person who thinks this is a real issue?

Offline

#8 2012-04-05 21:44:11

mike4ca
Happy (Arch|Manjaro)[B,b]ang User
From: Iowa, USA
Registered: 2011-10-17
Posts: 435

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

I see, but exactly this is it, users who are still learning can't help - users who know it all don't always remember that newer users don't know "this" or "that".

Exactly.  Hard to put into words on a forum but that is what I found.  I try to think if there is not enough background.  Too much background and you lose the pertinent info.  Too little and newer users struggle.  That is why I still encourage others to help contribute to help fill in what may be missing.  Newer users will find the "gaps" more as they are looking at the wiki closer.

Your other example does bring up that a certain amount of knowledge about a computer is needed to use certain distros.  I recall figuring out the hwclock and UTC thing when I would see my clock in one install be off by 6 hours.  That forced me to figure out that subject.  I know this was just an example so I won't dwell on it.

My impression of the Arch and Archbang communities is that the preference is for the users to read, experiment, try to learn, and then ask questions.

Last edited by mike4ca (2012-04-05 22:24:37)


Free Software Foundation member 10865

Offline

#9 2012-04-06 06:08:58

Kruppt
Moderator
From: Blue Ridge Mountains, NC
Registered: 2010-12-20
Posts: 299

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

Well, when you consider all wiki info is provided freely by persons who choose to offer what they can, when they can...freely, you can not make much demands on that. I think it's a little presumptuous even to bring it up. You take what they provide thankfully, and what they have not had the time to provide, you dig to the bottom of the barrel yourself looking for the answer. When you have found the answer/solution to that problem after digging hard yourself, you then help others by providing that information as to help others. There's a saying, "You Shouldn't have takin' more than you gave". Basically all that is going on here is users helping users freely of their own time. Nobody owes us anything in regards to FOSS. It's a "you take, you give community", but not a "I want, I demand" community.

Offline

#10 2012-04-06 09:26:57

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

I don't have time to reply right now, but I appreciate all of your feedback, good points.

I didn't mean to demand, I rather meant to signal and say we have a problem. You see, we first have to diagnose in order to heal. I wonder what we could do, to give the community - the ability to do things better.

This is how I can contribute right now.

Let Arch be chief even in the details.

Looking at your posts we are not in denial and we could start working on some ideas. ArchVortex linked me to that offline wiki - there are other projects on that page - one adressing neglected packages in the AUR. So there are people providing solutions. Maybe we could try implementing some feedback mechanism like Aurora has...

So, I think we should somehow capture these gaps - providing "noobs" with a more easier way to give feedback or something, could do... or might not. I don't know. A timer to clock the problem - to solution period. I don't know.....

Offline

#11 2012-04-06 09:52:07

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

Another adventure I had, besides, ntpd, clocks and countless others, was setting the keyboard language.

The a page on wiki links to a very long page. Now, the problem isn't that I didn't know that "gb" stands for english, or "es" for spanish (espana) and so on, cause we know these things. The problem arises when you need more than usually, because it so happens that the two letter code I knew, was useless. "ro" simply doesn't provide the extra sings of the language. I needed another code.

I was supposed to modify a config file storing these codes. Now, next time I turned on my computer I expected to have my keyboard. I didn't happen. Go look for the file again. Go find a code. Go search for what went wrong. Try again.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/KEYMAP
The wiki says:

find /usr/share/kbd/keymaps/ -name "*[your desired keymap]*"

Here's how that went...

find /usr/share/kbd/keymaps/ -name "*ro*"
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/ro_win.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/ro.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/sk-prog-qwerty.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/ro_std.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/cz-lat2-prog.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwertz/croat.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwertz/sk-prog-qwertz.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/include/euro.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/include/euro1.inc
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/include/euro2.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/include/euro1.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/mac/include/mac-euro2.map.gz
/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/mac/include/mac-euro.map.gz

So above we have, ro_win, ro and ro_std

I tried ro_std cause that's what you'd expect from the above output.
No luck at next bootup. ro(std), ro (std) or something like that didn't work either. Instead of trying to figure out how to write in an un-annotated config file for fbxkb, I gave up and eventually............... hours latter, days even after I first tried to do this, found that it's better to use setxkbmap. it works like this:

setxkbmap ro std
setxkbmap us dvorak
#or
setxkbmap --layout dvorak

the wiki lists "ro_win" as the keyboard for romanian. Look what happens to that advice next:

setxkbmap ro_win
Error loading new keyboard description

But we already know we don't need an _, so.......

setxkbmap ro win
Error loading new keyboard description

Oooops. No comment.

Edit: I can no longer find a wiki page for fbxkb either on arch or archbang.org. Following instructions led nowhere.

Last edited by distrohopperarched (2012-04-06 09:59:25)

Offline

#12 2012-04-06 09:55:51

Mr Green
Iso Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 4,744

Re: between the wiki and the GUI


Follow me on twitter @mrgreen_linux

Offline

#13 2012-04-06 10:01:23

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

Yes, I edited my post and included that link, but it was too late.

Look at that page it suggests:

KEYMAP="ro_win.map.gz"

for romanian. Look above:

setxkbmap ro win
Error loading new keyboard description

It simply doesn't work.

Offline

#14 2012-04-06 10:03:02

distrohopperarched
Member
Registered: 2012-01-30
Posts: 104

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

By the way, someone could edit that wiki and replace it with ro_std. At least that works.

Offline

#15 2012-04-06 13:21:31

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 2,941
Website

Re: between the wiki and the GUI

@ Distro: you don't seem to understand the diverse hints and suggestions that are given to you to change your reproachful, demanding and sultry tone to a more constructive and positive, collaborating position. You mix personal configuration issues and your problems to solve them with a general opinion on the Wiki.
You cite an extract of the wiki on useless criticism but the content of these words doesn't seem to come through.

BTW, you are aiming your criticism at the wrong place; try the Arch forums: we are just a little group of people trying to maintain an easy intro to Arch better known as Archbang.
The group that is building the Arch wiki is much larger and probably more experienced.

If you think the Wiki could be better, what nobody is denying, just start doing it, making it better.
Nobody would object to you putting forth a specific problem, discussing how you felt the wiki dealt with that and asking or making suggestions how this could be altered/bettered in the Wiki.

By the way, someone could edit that wiki and replace it with ro_std. At least that works.

Why wouldn't you do it? Why would somebody else do that for you? And have you thought of the possibility that that solution of the Wiki probably worked for somebody else it wouldn't be provided as a solution, so that your set up  might need that specific solution you found? In other words many times there will be more solutions possible and not all will work always but in some specific situations that can not always be defined.

For me all this is enough reason to close this thread. Consider yourself warned.
If you keep going on this way; moaning and groaning without any positive contributions, I will be forced to ban you from these forums.
You will be the first user of the forums who gets banned for other reasons than spamming.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB