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#1 2015-04-04 23:57:20

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

elitism in archlinux

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=195554

Why do we not get our own act together and go void? I have been sitting on the fence now for months trying to decide if should switch. What is stopping me is I am comfortable with arch and having been for many years despite recent changes.

Do we switch too Void? Or carry on with Arch?


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#2 2015-04-05 01:50:25

replabrobin
Member
Registered: 2011-11-06
Posts: 86

Re: elitism in archlinux

Hi Mr G,

I cannot follow that link it ends up as "Bad request. The link you followed is incorrect or outdated."

I have often found computer people to be arrogant and contemptuous of those the regard as having lesser understanding. Arch linux folks are sometimes like that. They particularly seem to dislike "derivative" distributions and any discussion about fundamentals.

As for void, I believe the thing I hesitate about most is xbps, I really like pacman. Like you I am very comfortable with Arch and its component parts. I do dislike systemd and have tried to remove it from an installation of Arch linux; that is harder and harder as time goes on and the Arch devs make things more and more co-dependant; they seem to have found a rabbit hole which they really like. Of course even in void systemd is present in various forms although the standard init seems mostly free of it. Void has fewer packages, but that's expected of a distro with such a small user/dev base. Last time I looked it was 281 (80 in last month) on distrowatch. Not having fora is a big negative.

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#3 2015-04-05 02:07:13

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: elitism in archlinux

Could look at adding runit to ArchBang again, my only option with that is too run with Manjaro. It would mean getting some sort of permission to use there tools/packages or simply folding ArchBang into Manjaro. Building a custom repo and maintaining it would take a lot of work.

Sorry I forget links too Arch forums will only work if you are logged in....

Will admit that I do get frustrated more now at users who do not look before they leap, tend now too avoid hitting the keyboard at such things. That in itself I think is a bad thing because I may be able to help.

Void well xbps is fragmented for some weird reason, when a swiss army command approach would be far better (not that bunch of aliases could not sort!), package wise they are not that far behind arch and the rest could be built. Does have many advantages, it is fast, light and easy to use.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#4 2015-04-05 07:25:21

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: elitism in archlinux

The only things I think Void are missing are:
1) proper forums - the google groups are OK but don't do nearly as good a job
2) no infinality patches - I can't get my fonts looking exactly like they do on Arch.  I keep promising myself to build the packages myself but never get around to it

Other than that, I don't really see what Arch has that is vastly superior other than familiarity.

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#5 2015-04-05 07:59:42

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: elitism in archlinux

Could easily deal with point one, that would bring in Void users who might have patches you need.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#6 2015-04-05 08:50:04

moravec
Member
From: near volcano, pacific NW, USA
Registered: 2010-10-07
Posts: 114
Website

Re: elitism in archlinux

For myself I've already kind of migrated to Void.  I like how fast and simple it is and no systemd.  That being said I still like archbang, I have it on one of my machines (my net book).  I guess I like things the way they are now where there are 2 choices, archbang and voidbang.  That being said you are the heart of this forum Mr. Green and I understand if it is too frustrating and/or time consuming to maintain both.  I know you are not doing it for the pay. smile

I guess the only other concern  would be the traffic you would lose from people who come here because of their interest in arch.


ex Distro Junkie, Archbang addict

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#7 2015-04-05 09:25:35

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: elitism in archlinux

Well for now we do have void sub forum, really have had very little interest in VoidBang which is sad in one way. Would certainly not make a living from iso building, could easily maintain both if I had some regular income....


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#8 2015-04-05 10:57:12

joji
Member
Registered: 2013-06-05
Posts: 58

Re: elitism in archlinux

Mr Green wrote:

could easily maintain both

Would be the ideal world, Mr Green. Everybody would feel happy.

Kindly do not drop ArchBang. We like your livecd's. We need them for our daily work. Do not leave your child.
As long as there is no elitism in ArchBang ... Even if there is elitism in archlinux as some feel.

Just my point of view.

Thank you

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#9 2015-04-06 01:10:03

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: elitism in archlinux

Thread I linked too is now closed, seems we are still a thorn in there side. As for being elite here, we are a very small team and smaller user base so it is less likely too happen. I myself very rarely close or remove posts (unless by accident).

My own view is that I use the tools, packages and knowledge provided by Archlinux to create isos. If Arch was not open source then none of the work I do would be possible. Still surprised I am not banned from Arch forums......

This thread is now done so closing for deletion wink


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#10 2015-04-08 03:54:08

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: elitism in archlinux

Hi folks, I re-opened this thread because  I missed it (I gave myself a small internet holiday) and want to react

This was the topic starter by Coemgenus:

Hi, guys I just recently installed Arch Linux on a laptop computer. I got everything working so I didn't join this forum for help. Before I get into the subject, of the thread,  let me give you a little background information about myself : I've been using linux since 1997 (when it was still exclusively for geeks) and the *BSDs since 2000. My favorite Operating system is OpenBSD.

Ok, with that out of the way I read this internet article on the internet about arch linux elitism here : http://misguidedthoughts.com/journal/20 … ux-elitism

Here is the quote from the article that is supposed to showcase arch linux elitism :

"...And about the notion that dumbing-down the installer would bring more users, then we for sure do not need those kinda users which such a change would bring, and we in fact allready have much to many of them imho."

Ok, let me knock you guys down a few pegs by showing you some real elitsm coming from someone whose favorite OS is OpenBSD (whose community is way more elitist than you guys will ever be). The installer is already dumbed down and not 'elite'; for instance, you have editors like nano in the ISO image instead of just having something like vi etc.. etc.. also I found that you have elinks in the install ISO rather than links or lynx but I found elinks to be a piece of crap in comparison. Arch people seem to think anything newer is better which is not always the case.

I installed Arch Linux maybe 10 years ago with the older installer. I can also install OpenBSD no problem and the OpenBSD installer is considered to be spartan and 'not easy'; for instance I have a friend who uses Ubuntu who tried to install OpenBSD and he had no chance of getting installed and couldn't even come close.

However, here is the difference while the OpenBSD installer may be considered 'hard' by many but at least it is efficient. I can install an OpenBSD system alot faster than Arch.

The other problem I have with it is the configuration tools or a significant amount of them are not universal unix-like or unix tools but idiosyncratically Arch.  So my problem with it is not the common 'it is too hard' thing but rather that :

1.) It is not efficient

2.) The configuration tools and/or scripts are not universally Unix or unix-like

Now the second problem extends to after the install too in terms of some of the configuration being non-standard and idiosynratic unlike slackware. Now the problem with this is that you guys are not huge Linux juggernaut like Redhat so it is not logical to have idiosyncratic non-standard stuff that is not universally unix-like because you just don't have the clout to make it worth learning 'the arch way'.

Anyway, that is my criticism and you take it or leave I'm not trying to dicatate anything to the arch linux developers this is just my opinion.  I'm going to use Arch Linux for now but when a new slackware version is released I'll probably switch to Slackware because Slackware is more unix-like than arch so the skills between BSD, other Unices and Slackware are more transferrable.  However, you never know maybe I'll end up sticking with Arch because perhaps it will 'grow on me'. Also, this is my first time using systemD; I have to look into the systemD code more and research it a little more before I come to a final conclusion on it but if I find what I suspect to be true which is SystemD is like the svchost.exe of the Linux world then I'm definitely only using Slackware, FreeBSD and OpenBSD but for now I'm going to remain open minded to SystemD.

Had to delve out my old password, as I haven't visited the Arch fora in ages. The usual hurt fanboy reactions.
And than further on the thread a kamikaze action of our dear hero Mr Green mentioning  " spin-offs". And than the reaction, phh, what a bunch of losers.  Still funny how they gather around to thrash the topic starter and he doesn't show up any more.
Anyway since  a long time the Arch community was a reason to avoid the Arch forums and that doesn't seem to have changed.
In the mean time Archbang is a good  and easy gateway to arch+systemd and voidbang a damn easy Void.
Both accomplishments on which we can be proud and that all thanks to Mr Green.
He  gets  a prescription from the forums doctor however: stay away from the Arch forums for at least three months. To get back some positive vibrations!!


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#11 2015-04-08 12:52:16

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: elitism in archlinux

The *BSD's are a good "Free" Unix/OS for many reasons, but they can be extremely driver-less too.
OpenBSD, for example, to this day still refuse "nvidia",..., anything, simply beacause nvidia refuse to freely release their code for analysis by  OpenBSD. OpenBSD needs to see "ALL" code for their's and our's security reasons. well, we all know the answer nvidia gave OpenBSD.

Compared to Linux, BSD has very limited drivers. As long as your willing to live with that, and try to build a "desktop" with very "standard/open" hardware, then *BSD can be a very fine Unix-like/OS to use.
And that's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is, right now.
However, both BSD and Linux have all that is needed to fill everything we need, such as free and healthy competition, sharing of code, ...
I also think GNU/Linux has a huge purpose/reason here too, maybe moreso. It really can be the "Desktop" of the future, and NOT Win*, or Macosx*.
What's good for Linux can also be good for BSD, and vica-versa.

Everyone knows (the primary) arch devs use Redhat primarily on a day-to-day working basis. (their "paid" jobs).-and that's it, there's your masked-man unmasked.
Hence why a binary-only "systemd", and et all, has been happening.
The dilemma is Redhat is obviously NOT free, it's corporately-for-profit-only "owned".  -It might as well be Win*.
They honestly couldn't care less whether a LinuxOS/system is more easily  "readable/scriptable",...,  for the end-user/admin,..., or not, -and yet, they say instead that: "they just want it easier for them to maintain Arch..." -blah, blah, blah, or so they say ?! -oh but wait, that's also their reason for NOT giving a "free" option for any other init... ?  -lol.
-and that, my friends, is the (new) Arch in a nutshell.

I just wish R. Stallman had a pair of balls to weigh in, but I guess as long as systemd and more like it plays ball with "GNU" then all is ok ?:(

So, for now,  I say, "here's to Arch's eliteism, may it go down as fast as it wrongfully came up, and never surface again"
smile

Last edited by scjet (2015-04-08 13:34:50)

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#12 2015-04-08 13:25:54

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: elitism in archlinux

Am working on a spin off of archiso, a light version split rather than the massive unrequired dual one. Would like to get it down too 200mb


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#13 2015-04-08 13:29:56

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: elitism in archlinux

Mr Green wrote:

Am working on a spin off of archiso, a light version split rather than the massive unrequired dual one. Would like to get it down too 200mb

well dude, that's not eliteism, that's progress and experimentation,... and that's always welcome. wink

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#14 2015-04-09 12:07:15

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: elitism in archlinux

I would prefer an new Voidbang iso, but this will have some attractiveness for you although I don't see it.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#15 2015-04-09 12:16:38

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: elitism in archlinux

We really need to decide as a team if we should run with VoidBang and leave Arch behind....


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#16 2015-04-09 20:22:14

RedDevil
Member
Registered: 2014-09-26
Posts: 6

Re: elitism in archlinux

My vote is for a new Voidbang iso also.  Perhaps then a decision might become clearer.  For some reason I could not get the last one to boot.

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