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#1 2014-04-07 14:24:26

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Interest in initscripts iso version

I am thinking of creating a basic initscripts version of archbang. Still using shipped packages as much as possible. Now let me get one thing set from the start I am not going to rebuild every package to remove systemd there really is little point.

I do need help.

Two major issues are dbus and udev....


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#2 2014-04-07 15:42:22

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Hey Mr. Green,

I use the eudev and dbus-nosystemd packages from the AUR under OpenRC:

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/eudev/
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/dbus-nosystemd/

No deps on OpenRC so should work under System V Init without issues. I for one would be interested as I broke my OpenRC installation the other day - got another operational but I'd like to just use System V init for now till we can get a standard setup for OpenRC working.

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#3 2014-04-08 01:37:13

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Have tried OpenRc, minirc, sinit (with fs) and still have come back to a more familiar init system that was part of Arch. Would like to get iniscripts working then maybe create our own based on it. Minirc had potential but has not been updated for nearly a year.

This is in aur

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/initscripts-fork/

Might be able to get it running with eudev and dbus-nosystemd. Anyway early days yet ;-)


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#4 2014-04-08 04:04:49

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Hope we can figure it out. Another init system I have been watching is Epoch http://universe2.us/epoch.html But I do agree, I have a few IRIX boxes I maintain that also use System V Init. Hit any snags thus far?

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#5 2014-04-08 04:13:43

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Not heard of Epoch how viable it is I cannot at this point. Think the name of the game is keeping things simple...


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#6 2014-04-10 11:03:27

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Okay Mr. Green, I am installing Virtualbox today and will try getting the sysvinit packages from the AUR working as well. I have a nice, stable OpenRC installation at the moment, but I'll setup a VE for the purpose of sysvinit. I think we made a mistake focusing on OpenRC first.

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#7 2014-04-10 11:07:06

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Not so a mistake just a conflict in packages. I enjoy messing with Arch :-)

Initscripts work, just cannot find rc scripts....


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#8 2014-04-10 11:12:46

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Let me do some digging and I'll get back to you on this. Just installed vbox and am downloading the proper iso. I'll ask a friend of mine who I believe has a a sysvinit Arch install, maybe I can beg her to come on here and help out.

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#9 2014-04-10 17:23:47

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Well vs vbox I ended up using KVM, anyways, installing a base ArchBang install and will see about getting sysvinit working on it, assuming I am successful I will let you know and update the wiki.

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#10 2014-04-10 17:41:19

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Alright Mr Green I found the rc scripts!

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/rcdscripts-aic/

You're welcome. I'm still testing things. I am hoping my friend will join us in our efforts, but we will see.

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#11 2014-04-10 18:43:51

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Well I did it. Archbang boots fine with the following AUR packages and it seems all services work:

AUR list:
initscripts-fork
rcdscripts-aic (Has an MD5 failure, reporting to maintainer)
eudev
dbus-nosystemd

I have a qemu/kvm x64 image I could tar up and send to you, Mr. Green, if you want to test for yourself.

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#12 2014-04-11 03:53:47

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,600
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Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

What a systemd free version should entail from the users point of view.
1. It should be as easy installable as AB is now;
2. It should be possible to update without very complicated proceedings;
3. of most important basic daily use programs (browser, file manger, music player, media player, etc) there should be an alternative that works out of the box when installed via pacman.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#13 2014-04-11 04:27:18

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Pablokal,

Agree 100% with your view. We'll get this resolved and working. Awaiting Mr Green's feedback, as I'll admit - I am just learning C now and. Working on some personal projects first, but nowhere near ready to release any code or do any coding modifications to help with this. I've considered setting up ArchIso and doing some work myself with a Cd install.

Thus far on my System V init KVM ve I have observed one issue: OpenBox's shutdown/reboot commands no longer work, but this is the case with OpenRC as well. $ sudo poweroff & sudo reboot work fine though.  Unlike my host system which used APG's OpenRC scripts, I didn't really need to do anything with the System V init install, just installed the packages, rebooted, worked like a charm.

From what I see currently, file manager, music player, browser, network and email all work independently of systemd at the moment.

Really, the biggest hurdle in a systemd free version that the mainsteam Arch devs have bullied developers into cramming systemd dependencies into mainstream packages, I had to install a libsystemd standalone package to get KVM running - thats borderline unacceptable but know why they have done it, its a clever way to manipulate the populace. I even asked if I could update their System V init articles to make them relevant. They said they eventually are going to delete them. | OTL |

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#14 2014-04-11 12:31:51

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,600
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Thanks Black Fox
I totally are with you too when you are trying this, but are very pessimistic about its possibilities.

The way systemd is integrated into a lot of stuff and is implicitly aiming to become necessary (implicit monopolism) is also the reason way I fought systemd in the first place as it defeats the Kiss principle and the modular build that is key in strong and resistive builds be it organisms or Osses.

The Arch devs have done everything it seems to infect their OS with systemd; the price they will have to pay for that has not yet come, but I'm convinced it will come.
I won't be laughing, because it is  a shame what is happening to such a formerly great  OS,


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#15 2014-04-11 12:38:29

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

I fear, this first prize to be paid will be the removal of the udev provides in pkgbuilds.
If that happens, a lot of things become more complicated to remove systemd. We all would end up compiling tons of packages.

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#16 2014-04-11 13:26:25

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Pablokal,

I don't know about others here, but if/when the day comes where, I'll be more than happy to support any Arch fork that wants to keep it simple if it comes to be the case and there is significant enought interest. While I'm still far away from OS development in my skills , I have plenty of free server space, free time and the infrastructure for servers to support such a product and ensure such project has a home.

I already know for one thing: Any project where I had a say, I'd have never allowed, tolerated or forced users to use any init system or piece of software - Linux and other free operating systems (Not RMS 'Free' but simply 'Free of charge and open') are about choice. Thats what makes us different from monollithic systems like Mac OS or Windows, but we're not so fragmented that we're fully incompatible.

artoo,

My goodness that would be bad. Its already getting worse to be honest, but one reason I am trying to offer so much support is that I feel Gentoo and alternatives lack the feel of Arch. But, you know, we have to be positive about the future, no matter the result. Glad to have you join us!

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#17 2014-04-11 15:05:34

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

If I can take iso out of the equation for now. Can work in configs once we get something running in a VM. Installer is less of an issue though it will need modification, after all we are just copying system.

Need to agree on init system we are going to use? Or create our own?


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#18 2014-04-11 15:24:34

The Black Fox
Member
Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

I'm fine with any of the following:

Sys V init (initscripts-fork seems to work well)
OpenRC
Epoch

Whatever is easiest for us to use and where I can help I don't have issues.

Here is a list of their benefits/drawbacks from the Gentoo wiki: http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems

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#19 2014-04-11 23:33:28

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

I would rather use initscripts fork as they are more familiar to me. Openrc would be a better choice for features. Need to determine how many packages I need to build to get an alternative init system working. Fewer the better :-)


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#20 2014-04-12 06:40:15

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green wrote:

I would rather use initscripts fork as they are more familiar to me. Openrc would be a better choice for features. Need to determine how many packages I need to build to get an alternative init system working. Fewer the better :-)


In my view, one big reason to use openrc.
That is, openrc is actively developed, maintained, and almost en par with systemd in terms of features.

All other init systems for linux lack behind.

Basically, you don't have to care about maintaining versions, and the kind gentoo devs do the work anyway.

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#21 2014-04-12 07:30:39

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Still confused about package selection, if I have the wrong packages which ones do I need to get started (your ones?). Basically need to get a VM running with dbus and (e)udev then will build it up from there.

Am assuming with dbus running I can get network manger working, something that stopped me using openrc in the past.

Can get around poweroff, shutdown without too much effort.


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#22 2014-04-12 08:41:44

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green wrote:

Still confused about package selection, if I have the wrong packages which ones do I need to get started (your ones?). Basically need to get a VM running with dbus and (e)udev then will build it up from there.

Am assuming with dbus running I can get network manger working, something that stopped me using openrc in the past.

Can get around poweroff, shutdown without too much effort.

yaourt -S openrc-base

Everything is working, just that you use wrong packages. wink

Read here:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 5#p1402665

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#23 2014-04-12 08:43:55

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Thank you ;-) just needed a heads up


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#24 2014-04-12 08:52:00

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green wrote:

Thank you ;-) just needed a heads up

This should be of interest for you.

https://github.com/udeved/arch-openrc/t … dep_graphs

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#25 2014-04-12 09:43:27

The Black Fox
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Registered: 2014-04-06
Posts: 44

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green,

Since we have Artoo here lets get OpenRC working first, then if there is still interest in SysVinit Arch we'll get to that. I'll work on whatever you guys need me to, sandboxing, writing documentation or whatever.

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#26 2014-04-12 09:51:14

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Ok.... starting again with Openrc-base and sysvinit, getting this error

 /usr/bin/rc-update add udev sysinit
 * rc-update: udev already installed in runlevel `sysinit'; skipping
+ /usr/bin/rc-update add dbus
 * rc-update: service `dbus' does not exist

Guessing I need to add dbus? ;-) might help


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#27 2014-04-12 09:53:40

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green wrote:

Ok.... starting again with Openrc-base and sysvinit, getting this error

 /usr/bin/rc-update add udev sysinit
 * rc-update: udev already installed in runlevel `sysinit'; skipping
+ /usr/bin/rc-update add dbus
 * rc-update: service `dbus' does not exist

Guessing I need to add dbus? ;-) might help


You need to install openrc-sys-split.
It is a split package, which includes dbus-openrc.

It is basically enough to add consolekit to runlevel, as openrc is dependency based, it will start dbus.
But adding dbus itself won't hurt either.

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#28 2014-04-12 09:56:31

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Lets see what happens


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#29 2014-04-12 10:01:32

artoo
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Registered: 2013-02-16
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green wrote:

Lets see what happens


It will work.
If not, you can virtually slap me. smile

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#30 2014-05-20 07:48:29

aaditya
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From: India
Registered: 2014-05-20
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Trying out sysvinit + initscripts-fork after reading this thread smile

Initially I was getting a kernel panic, then I figured out that there was no binary init but there was /usr/bin/sysvinit so I symlinked it.

Then it was reported that /sbin/init was not found, you are on your own.. So I added init=/usr/bin/sysvinit and it booted up (with many warnings / errors I think).

I typed startx and Xfce was started smile
But all my partitions were not displayed, and no network also.

Then when I selected reboot, it hanged and said no more processes left for this runlevel..

As I explored more, I found there were binaries like poweroffsysv, rebootsysv, etc..
So I symlinked them to poweroff, reboot, etc..

Result was that I had a system that I could boot and shutdown / restart smile

Now can anyone provide me some hint / guide / manual using which I can get desired functionality?

Specifically, how to use sysvinit with mkinitcpio to use sysvinit by default..
How to enable dbus, network, udev, etc..

Thanks in advance wink

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#31 2014-05-20 08:07:30

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

I had this in syslinux

init=/usr/bin/init

You can find more daemons here

https://bitbucket.org/TZ86/arch-rcscripts/src


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#32 2014-05-20 09:19:22

aaditya
Member
From: India
Registered: 2014-05-20
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Mr Green wrote:

I had this in syslinux

init=/usr/bin/init

You can find more daemons here

https://bitbucket.org/TZ86/arch-rcscripts/src

Thanks for the hint.

Using your info and the rcdscripts-aic package mentioned in this thread, I added many daemons to /etc/rc.d, and put them in /etc/rc.conf

Its a step in the right direction, but as a newbie to arch sysvinit, I think I am over my head..
I thought it was going to be easy.. sigh

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#33 2014-05-20 09:34:17

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

A little work now and you will learn far more about your system and Arch. Always found dbus a real problem


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#34 2014-05-20 09:37:08

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,722

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Biggest problem I had was trying to get network manager working but there are alternatives. Connman, wicd or a manual set up.


Comments, suggestions, donations please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#35 2014-05-20 10:16:36

aaditya
Member
From: India
Registered: 2014-05-20
Posts: 39
Website

Re: Interest in initscripts iso version

Yes, getting stuck at network.. Wifi..

I am using wicd, and put the wicd-daemon in rc.conf, and the wicd-gtk tray in Xfce autostart.

After that I can connect to my Wifi router, but there is no internet connection, and when I ping google.com I get host not found.

Another thing not working is the mounting of partitions..
With systemd I get notification asking for root-password, but with sysvinit, I simply get operation not allowed.

Comparing the sysvinit system on my Slackware install, I guess I am missing many components, like consolekit..

Last edited by aaditya (2014-05-20 10:17:05)

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