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#1 2012-10-09 06:35:53

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
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News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Post from Jubei yesterday: Source: http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?pid=18820#p18820

Back !!! have been on contract an unavailable, but working feverishly anyway. FINISHED.

https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE-BUILD-REPO
https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE-I7-BINARY-REPO
https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE-MAINTAINED

Thats it, all of them , in binary and source, I am maintaining approx 70 packages, the rest are optimized passthroughs,
I am currently running a full cinnamon setup, NO SYSTEM D,  i have removed EVERYTHING !!!!!!!
Even the creation of systemd folders which is currently done in glib of all places !
Everything works but not shock tested or anything. I have brought a lot of gentoo work to arch which has
allowed me to strip a lot of gnome deps ( social web colord etc )
Finally the AXE script is finished which allows anyone even intermediate experience users to build their own versions.
This is here

https://jmitsuyoshi@bitbucket.org/jmitsuyoshi/axe.git
https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE.git

and for easy download onto a base system ( which is where it should be run )

https://bitbucket.org/jmitsuyoshi/axe/downloads/axe.gz

This is from the AXE intro


"I am a script designed to massivly rebuild a sizable part of the Archlinux distribution in a particular direction.

My Directives........
1) AXE does not like systemd..... remove systemd at root by rebuilding around udev-fork
2) AXE does not like consolekit, polkit, pulseaudio, sudo, socialweb, colord..... remove as much as possible of them at root by clever patching and recompilation
and either replace thyeir functionality or remove the need for them entirly
3) AXE likes root.... make it easy and convenient to run everything as root, AXE uses its own far more effective security model
4) AXE only supports GTK 2/3, ( at the moment )
5) AXE likes Cinnamon

Why? ........ The nature of GCC and linux as a concept allows a user to tailor their Operating system (oS) to the exact perimeters of the hardware
and to their personal tastes, by doing so one can achieve considerable speed and stability improvements.

Why not Gentoo or any other source based distro? ..... Good question, gentoo is an excellent alternative to AXE and you should seriously consider
gentoo before trying AXE, having said that Archlinux is very very cutting edge and progressive, whereas gentoo is not, and portage is very
hard to learn and not as feature full as pacman/makepkg.${txtrst}"

How is all this achieved ? ..... Obviously as a script i cannot be imparted with all the code necessary to modify Arch
so extensively, so my creator has produced a collection of over 60 PKGBUILD's to do the job, they replace standard Arclinux packages
during the build process, these PKGBUILDS have been carefully modified to replace systemd and achieve my other goals,
they are also being maintained inline with arch packages and in some cases are better/newer.
The github locations for the repo,s i use are

https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE-BUILD-REPO  ....... which contains my sources
https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE-I7-BINARY-REPO ...... which contains I7 compiled binaries (more on that later )
https://github.com/Jubei-Mitsuyoshi/AXE-MAINTAINED ..... which contains all my creators original work

all the modifications are open to public scrutiny and criticism."

What i need........ i am designed to be run on a bare archlinux setup the following install medium have been tested

    archlinux-2012.08.04-dual.iso
    archlinux-2012.08.26-x86_64.iso
    archlinux-2012.09.07-dual.iso
   
I also need a stable and quick wired internet connection, all the other dependencies etc i will fetch for myself.

What do you need....... you need to have some basic knowledge of pacman, and understand what optimization flags mean,
not because you need to do any programming or anything but because i will be asking you some questions about your
personal optimization preferences, it would be useful if you knew what the fuck i was talking about.
   
How long does it take ..... About 24 hours on an I7 laptop, considerably less on a similar desktop

When i'm done ....... you will have a collection of optimized binaries, FULLY and beautifully crafted for your processor
you can then share these binaries with other AXE users so they can enjoy full optimization without the headache
of compiling

My modes of operation ....... I have several modes of operation that are chosen by menu choices and locations of sources

Dev mode ....... So you are a developer who wants to use the AXE git archive as a start to your own AXE version
Clone the AXE- MAINTAINED and AXE-PKGBUILD  git, ( on another pc obviously ), do your mods on AXE-MAINTAINED
as you see fit, use my USB STICK function to load your stuff to my dev folder, and the unmodified ( compressed)
sources to the USB folder. I will build your sources as preference and revert to my masters sources if yours are not present.

Bootstrap mode ........ So you have a I7 already, or you dont care about optimization but just hate/like the same things
my creator does. Just load your binary repo from git ( use the option when asked )chose the I7 and bootstrap option when asked,
then go through the instructions and within 5 min you will have a systemd-free setup, then you can create your own arch
just as if you were dealing with a normal arch setup. But obviously quicker and free from a lot of dependencies

Full rebuild mode ....... So you dont have a I7 and DO care about optimization, use the menu to load the sources git,
DO NOT answer yes to bootstrapping, answer the questions regarding the kernel and -O2/-O3, then wait 24 hours
or so for me to do my stuff"

Technical stuff ....... First i rebuild you toolchain, and i mean FULLY rebuild it, as if you were building a cross
compiler. This gives a rocksolid toolchain, i also prevent toolchain updates via pacman, and control updates
in my own fasion so all toolchain components remain rock solid.

The toolchain is build -O2 and in a special sequence, this is fixed in code and should never be changed.

My build algorithm for other packages is quite complex and goes something like this

fetch sources > build in ram > if fails build in HDD > if it fails build in HDD with cpu cores set to 1 > if it fails

mark it a build fail and try to build it in a clean chroot environment > if it fails its a arch maintainers issue
                                                                       > if it succeeds its my fault and issue
                                                                     
During stage 1 i rebuild the kernel and give you a choice of full kernel hacking via nmenu.
I give you a choice of rebuilding with -O2 or -O3, this applies throughout the entire build and is only asked
once. Eventually i will give users the option of specifying -O2/-O3 per package

I reboot the machine at various stages of the build

The process is totally automated with some obvious exceptions, on each reboot you have to log back in,
at the start you will have to answer some questions, if you chose the menu option to rebuild your kernel
you have to be there to do that"

Currently systemd in AXE is replaced by the old Archlinux initscripts, very shortly that will be replaced with runit or equivalent

Once you have your collection of binaries i highly encourage you to upload them onto git for other people to benefit from,
if you dont know how to do that i can do it automatically for you, just contact my creator first at

<           >

and he will be glad to create a git and an alternate version of myself to access it."

ENJOY !:)

A word to the Arch devs, ( since no doubt they will be scanning over this ) bloody maintain your packages, dont just look at them when its time to bump !!!!
I have had to personally take over maintenance of 11 or so packages in the AXE project, they will NEVER
build untill you patch them up in the same way i have. Its not friggin rocket science, just copy gentoos work for fuck sake !!

Finally talking of gentoo there is a real possibility of bringing use flags to the axe project

Last edited by Jubei-Mitsuyoshi (Yesterday 11:32:30)-

The Axe project discussion on the Arch forums was closed today https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 4#p1172994
Another proof of the "open-mindedness" of the Arch forums and community.
Everybody who wants to contribute is welcome to discuss the further development here on the Archbang forums.
But the arrogant opponent bashing tone that is normal from the Arch devs and their Arch-fanboys on the Arch forums won't be tolerated here!!


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#2 2012-10-09 11:31:09

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

I am about to move all the packages somewhere else, i am done with the abuse one seems to get doing this ( not from arch bang i hasten to mention who have all been gentlemen to a man ), the cutoff time will be around 12 hours time, if you want em clone em before then, thanks
I will re-announce their new locations here ONLY, and post progress HERE ONLY from now on.

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#3 2012-10-09 20:36:40

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 505

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

@Jubei: Do you mind if I bring your work to the notice of the members/readership at http://spiralinear.org/forum/index.php  ?

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#4 2012-10-09 20:39:33

ArchVortex
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From: Ts’elxweyeqw, Canada
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,465

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi,

As I said before, you are free to publish your updates, ideas and future plans here. Perhaps we should give your project a special sub-forum here at ArchBang to make it easier to follow? We are all about freedom of choice and you have my support.


You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today.
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KEY ID:76D916DE
Currently running ArchBang / LFS / OpenSUSE Tumbleweed

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#5 2012-10-10 05:43:51

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Hi here are the new repo locations

git clone https://jmitsuyoshi@bitbucket.org/jmitsuyoshi/axe-maintained.git  .......... thats all the text sources so everyone can see and check the mods i have made
git clone https://jmitsuyoshi@bitbucket.org/jmitsuyoshi/axe-build-repo.git .......... are all the sources and the code compressed so anyone can compile their own set with whatever changes they desire, they also contain all the package sources so you dont have to rely on the authors websites being up and active ( which is very tricky sometimes )

handy ....... yes sure, smile

Vortex .... thanks a lot, but to tell the truth since the final insult of arch members posting really offensive stuff on my github bug tracker, i have totally lost the desire to help Arch or the wider linux community in any way, i would rather use my time and skills helping you guys out in any way i can, so i am YOUR disposal, just point me in a direction an i will try to get it done for you, i can rewrite most of arch into anything you need. I have already added cinnamon, compiz 0.9.8 , CUDA 5 rc1 , and a whole bunch of stuff Arch or the Aur hasnt got, and i am in the process of adding the whole of archpwn, so you got a lot to chose from smile. Or if you want me involved in other areas am happy to do that to.

I will also post smilly the passwds to the repos so he can help, he is actually a much better bash coder than myself, and you might feel more secure about using the packages if he is in charge.

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#6 2012-10-10 06:09:59

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Perhaps we should give your project a special sub-forum here

It's done.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#7 2012-10-11 07:47:21

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

I have taken down the binary repo untill i make another compile run, it seems there has been a soname shift around at arch, which forces a recompile run at my end.
Will post new i7 repo when it done, also will be making a vanilla 86_64 run asap

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#8 2012-10-11 10:01:29

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

quite a big announcement , smily the little genius has finished and packed, in a single day, something i have been looking at for a while

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=78881

this is the key to removing udisks from gnome.

Its quite a big step forward, big thanks to smily smile

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#9 2012-10-11 10:15:33

smil3y
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 176
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Except I haven't build package for it, it fails to compile but I'm on it as soon as I finish some other stuff I have to take care of (and my dinner) smile.


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#10 2012-10-11 12:36:07

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

smile smile smile

well good thing we got some cool compilation advice from the author then smile

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto … 40d053a2e7

i had it build fail too, but think that should do it

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#11 2012-10-11 12:36:48

smil3y
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 176
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Done!

+ udev-fork PKGBUILD for the stable version
+ builded pup-volumen-monitor binary package
* updated udev-fork-lsd-git PKGBUILD to build correctly
* updated initscripts to work with udev-fork packages

@pablokal I will open a new topic under the systemd free sub forum about the repository and post news there


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#12 2012-10-11 13:06:10

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

NICE !!!!!

and do you remember me saying something about wayland/nvidia being my greatest hurdle ?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n … px=MTE5MTk

Nvidia were super cool 7 years back when i was working with em, ( thermal management ), and good old germany, 7 years later its the same guys smile
Talking of work, might be on contract again, so if disappear you'll know whats going on, you got the keys to all the repos so have a cool time with the stuff smile

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#13 2012-10-12 01:52:24

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

1) yep we at the moment have a working ( pretty damn good ) version of archlinux with no systemd and a working initscripts, smily has a very nice custom kernel.
My original concept was to produce a script that everyone ( even intermediate users ) could run, and it would produce a optimized version of the archlinux packages for their system ( I3.17,19, or the amd's ) they could then share their packages, via git, with others with the same architecture, this over time would have resulted in several versions of archlinux for all the architectures. Fed by the work i have been doing on the packages.
In fact i have done just that, but time on the Arch forum has severely shaken my confidence in my own bash skills, so NO way am i ever going to let that bugger out to the general public again smile Hence now i am working with smily in a similar vein but with no optimization plans

2) yea easier said than done, am looking at frugalwares pacman-2 and they have identical build scripts and packaging system, but at the end of the day will be using someone elses system since no way can write one of my own. But yes would prefer if it wasnt Archlinux, still if stuck with it wont complain, am happy to copy any of their work, they were quite happy to copy mine. ( then call me names for doing it )

3)Actually have become a bit of an expert when it comes to building the toolchain, my toolchains are built properly !!! Just as if you were building for a cross assembler, i still use the AXE script to build the toolchain and other stuff cos once you have spent the 4 or so hours building it, it results in a lot less build failures when compiling the rest of the system.

I also had a larger scheme in mind, to produce something really really special, but again backlash i provoked has made that just to difficult for me personally, i cant afford to be followed round the web and hounded, its professional suicide

Last edited by Jubei-Mitsuyoshi (2012-10-12 01:55:58)

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#14 2012-10-12 07:23:35

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Mr Leonard seems to have a perfect track record of doing the correct thing wrongly.
Im going to repeat now some of the things i said on a Arch thread that was deleted ( by my request, but thats another story smile
First a bit about my background and why i ended up here.
I am a design EE ( electronic engineer ) and product designer with about 25 years in the industry ( yes im about 45 smile ) , was on a project to develop the frontend to a very high class WLAN-Streamer / DAC combination, so naturally thought, hey linux, thats free!! lets give it a go. So first step find a good base distro to build my embedded systems from, since was thinking of using a upscale AVR or MIPS and thats supported. Easier said than done.
First EVERYTHING i need to do needs a passwd, or careful configuration somewhere, how friggin annoying to a hardware designer is that !!! I helped design the fuckin thing, and the software is telling me im incomopitant !
Second compared to windows or apple inerfaces the linux desktop is CRUD, even with compiz blasting fullbore the little things ( useless settings and options, no rightclick menu with good integration to apps, i cant be bothered to go on ) just label the linux desktop as pre-xp
Third it is a mess under the hood, a lot of core stuff communicates with bash in the way, and WTF is an interpreter doing in the pipeline of core components which should all be communicating strictly in C/c++ ?
So being a complete nutter i decided to remedy the situation in my spare time ( the DAC project being dropped by the customer anyway )

So problem 1)
Answer
A.... devise a new security model for linux as a whole, enabling one to be root and also completely secure at the same time........DONE
B...... Strip the current security model from linux and the cinnamon desktop ..... only partly done

problem 2)
A..... use cinnamon as a base start to a decent linux desktop, with the changes to security and core components can make a full gnome desktop run faster than fluxbox...... Mostly done

Problem 3)
Answer
A ..... bring all current linux projects which could be called "core" under a single STABLE api umbrella, that is maintained just like the kernal is...... not done
B...... steal the necessary procedures from apple and windows to fit it all together into a decent unified whole, with 1 supported graphics toolkit ( others can run ontop/beside ) and desktop ...... not done
C....... persuade linux application writers that this is a really good idea .......... DONE ( they all agree on that one )

additional ....... create a proper driver graphics structure and eliminate Xorg .... wayland is doing it smile

Now what mr Leonard is doing is trying to address problem 3a , incorrectly. The reason for his mistake is trying to handle too many complexities and still balance mutually-exclusive design goals, if he was trying to do the same thing on an embedded system with one set of specific design goals and circumstances of operation, im sure he would do a very good job, but that is not the case here.
I cannot comment on the efficiency of his code, simply because he is a much better coder than myself and far more experienced in this field, but i can comment on the resultant memory footprint , which is MASSIVELY EXCESSIVE for the functionality systemd has to offer, and the system resources systemd uses when just "sitting there" which in my opinion are also excessive.

Hence systemd not for my vision, i want something similar, but nothing like it smile

Most of these plans ore on pause now till i decide what to do and which direction to take, as you may have noticed am rather pissed with arch at the moment, will take time to calm down in general, if i ever do smile

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#15 2012-10-12 07:57:26

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi wrote:

So problem 1)
Answer
A.... devise a new security model for linux as a whole, enabling one to be root and also completely secure at the same time........DONE

This seems like a *massive* undertaking.  Can you elaborate on it?

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#16 2012-10-12 08:59:38

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

I will a bit smile

The current linux security model tries to address the needs of the server and the desktop world simultaneously, and thein lies the problem.
My new security model separates the two with a very firm knife, i will do the desktop first.
A desktop user wants usually to do 2 seperate things, although they do not know it.
A... they want to do administrative stuff, move files, load programs, write programs etc
B .... they want to surf the internet, use facebook, irc etc etc etc

A... is on the whole a safe thing to do, statistically a vanishingly small percentage of threats come by statically copied stuff ( not copied of the internet )
B .. is an incredibly dangerous thing to do


So we create a system with 2 modes, safe, and unsafe.
In safe mode we are root, all the apps assume root and behave accordingly, no friggin annoyances,
As soon as the internet is accesed we go to unsafe mode, where the entire filesystem is run under AUFS , changes are carefully scanned before going anywhere near the core filesystem, as is done in puppy and some other secure filesystems.
Passwords etc can be passed between safe and unsafe in a controlled manner, invisible to anything running in safe unless we want to make it visible.
And hey presto , you got your cake and are eating it smile

Obviously only possible on a desktop with a human and human needs , and theres my point !! With the whole of this, write for your application, in this case HUMANS !!! smile

Now a server, almost the opposite smile

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#17 2012-10-12 09:15:22

smil3y
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 176
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

How about managing everything via the already existing groups thingy? Say, group A has access to X, group B has access to Y and group C has access to Z. If joe wants to access X he has to be in group A. Maybe he will want access to Y - add him to group B. That is already implemented at some level but (from what I know) is not enough. Maybe some mix of consolekit and groups managed via rules or something to be able to give joe access to /bin/X and /sbin/Z at the same time will do. dbus, consolekit, groups - they all should do the same thing but it never works right and the combination of those causes even more headache to all of us.


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#18 2012-10-12 09:26:11

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

interesting...  thanks for posting.  I must admit, I do get annoyed when I try to edit a file only to be told 'you don't permission' because I forgot to sudo.

It almost sounds (to my pea-brain at least) like the system 'runs' as root with anything network related in a sandbox but I'm probably way simplifying it.

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#19 2012-10-12 10:41:13

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

smil3y wrote:

How about managing everything via the already existing groups thingy? Say, group A has access to X, group B has access to Y and group C has access to Z. If joe wants to access X he has to be in group A. Maybe he will want access to Y - add him to group B. That is already implemented at some level but (from what I know) is not enough. Maybe some mix of consolekit and groups managed via rules or something to be able to give joe access to /bin/X and /sbin/Z at the same time will do. dbus, consolekit, groups - they all should do the same thing but it never works right and the combination of those causes even more headache to all of us.

yea thats the problem, consolekit was designed with sessions and desktop in mind, pam as network authentication, sudo as a patch, and su from old unix days, one cant expect that to work well.
Then there is memory footprint and wasted cpu cycles to consider, if there is an alternative, and there is, they should go, ( possibly with the exception of pam, being plugable it actually can do nothing if not called, have to investigate )

Puppy achieves a similar thing to what i am thinking in ram

http://www.puppylinux.com/development/h … works.html  ( check the architecture section )

But i want to do it in AUFS, kicking in the appropriate AUFS layer should be simple and lightning fast, so basically as soon as you hit that Firefox icon your in safe mode, similarly when you go off line bang comes up a window with the changes made to the filesystem since unsafe mode came in, that gives you ultimate control as to what cookies etc etc etc you want to let onto you hdd, everything else gets shredded !

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#20 2012-10-12 10:43:15

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

oliver wrote:

interesting...  thanks for posting.  I must admit, I do get annoyed when I try to edit a file only to be told 'you don't permission' because I forgot to sudo.

It almost sounds (to my pea-brain at least) like the system 'runs' as root with anything network related in a sandbox but I'm probably way simplifying it.


Yea kind of the idea but sandboxing the entire filesystem would be closer to the mark

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#21 2012-10-12 21:18:15

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 505

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

I haven't played with them yet (haven't seen the need personally), but FreeBSD's jails look to be doing this with any applications that the user chooses to put in a jail. Great for programmers testing their work & for beginners to BSD. I think you can run Linux files & possibly whole OS's in a FreeBSD jail!

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#22 2012-10-13 11:58:27

Ninja-1
Member
Registered: 2012-02-01
Posts: 46
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Anybody heard of QubesOS? It sandboxes the system by using multiple Xen virtual machines, and I believe each app has it's own VM. Reminds me of the Android app system. I downloaded it, but haven't tried it out yet. http://qubes-os.org/Home.html

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#23 2012-10-13 14:16:24

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,634
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Using sandfox always for safe networking; it is a very usable and important working solution: http://igurublog.wordpress.com/download … t-sandfox/


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#24 2012-10-16 19:27:39

ArchVortex
Retired
From: Ts’elxweyeqw, Canada
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,465

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

I think my biggest question is, is it going to to be possible to create a maintainable systemd free ArchBang iso based on Arch? Is ArchBang going the way of Chakra or has it already started moving in that direction? As the ArchBang project leader, I really don't feel comfortable ethically, polluting ArchBang user's systems with a full systemd .iso. It actually disgusts me. If someone wants to change their system to run on systemd then that's their perogative and choice. We are all about choice. I really don't want to be pushing systemd on anyone because I disagree with systemd and its implementation on so many levels.


You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today.
FP:E5F8 7DBA 8128 9ACB 75F7 7279 BE34 AB66 76D9 16DE
KEY ID:76D916DE
Currently running ArchBang / LFS / OpenSUSE Tumbleweed

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#25 2012-10-16 19:54:41

dodo3773
Member
Registered: 2011-11-17
Posts: 18

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

ArchVortex wrote:

I think my biggest question is, is it going to to be possible to create a maintainable systemd free ArchBang iso based on Arch?

Without at least a partial repository coming from somewhere else I do not understand how it could be (obviously not if you want package binaries). With all the changes that have been made I think this is probably more of an necessity/eventuality.   

As the ArchBang project leader, I really don't feel comfortable ethically, polluting ArchBang user's systems with a full systemd .iso. It actually disgusts me. If someone wants to change their system to run on systemd then that's their perogative and choice. We are all about choice. I really don't want to be pushing systemd on anyone because I disagree with systemd and its implementation on so many levels.

I also disagree with systemd. Not specifically because I do not like the init system (although I don't); I just don't like being told I have to use it (especially since it seems (to me at least) that it is being pushed in through manipulation and lies to force it on the users (the whole thing about udev still being maintained as a standalone working project for other init systems later to just say there was no intention to do so)). For that reason I don't care if it is the greatest init system ever created I am not going to use it if I don't have to. Personally I was waiting for all this udev and *kit business to get sorted out so I can move to either gentoo or (maybe after hearing this) archbang. Okay enough ranting from me. When the new iso comes out I will be happy to test it on my spare box.

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#26 2012-10-20 01:41:46

zanf
Member
Registered: 2012-10-20
Posts: 1

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

As much as I'd like proper repos for using Arch without systemd, this project unfortunately goes too far into various other directions.

The root/non-root model isn't exactly what I consider secure. I can run my web browser in a vm if that's so.

There are also powerful jailing mechanisms even for linux, such as rsbac_jail, which is similar to freebsd's jail. Those don't need no filesystem overlays (but can have one for other reasons than security)

I also don't believe the project will have a large success outside of the author and fans. I may be wrong, but, that's a risk I'll easily take.

Therefore, I would recommend having a simple "no-systemd" setup that can be used without getting all the rest of your experiments. You can then have the said experiments in a project that goes on top, but without requiring one another (heck that supports choice, and everything you seem to stand for right?) That's probably a little selfish since it's what *i* am looking for - but psst - I believe it's what *most* are also looking for. Lumping it ignite to avoid having to support initscripts in the future also sounds very much ok.

Last edited by zanf (2012-10-20 01:42:37)

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#27 2012-10-20 05:06:53

smil3y
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From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 176
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Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

Currently, I'm maintaining the repository and there isn't a single package implementing a new security model. I'm playing with removing PAM to see how that goes but packages will not hit the repository until I'm sure it's a good idea. I'm not sure what Jubei will come up with when he is back but it wont go well I guess.

Last edited by smil3y (2012-10-20 05:08:17)


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#28 2012-10-20 13:21:47

smil3y
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 176
Website

Re: News about Jubieis systemd-free AXE repos

And done! I'm running PAM free system. smile That required slight modifications to packages, notably:

coreutils
shadow
util-linux
inetutils
polkit
consolekit
cronie
sudo

I can (eventually) make my system run without all that PAM and *kit packages but it will take time for me to investigate and recompile all packages out there to make them work. List of packages depending on PAM can be found from here: http://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/i686/pam. Is anyone interested in helping with that? If you so grab sources/binaries from here: https://bitbucket.org/smil3y/pkgbuilds/src

Edit: some good reading http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/vi … urity.html

Last edited by smil3y (2012-10-20 13:28:14)


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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