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#1 2012-09-12 04:55:53

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,633
Website

Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

See for the context of this post: http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=3308

2012-09-10 12:14:49

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
    New member

Message

yea the way he treated gr3y_d0t was just not on, that was a fellow coder he was talking to, joint author of udev-fork, he should have shown even a little professional courtesy. That would have been totally unacceptable in my profession, engineers co-operate ALWAYS, ok we have heated exchanges but always under the framework of getting the job done, and making it work.
Im not going to give up, but defiantly going to post less on the arch forums, ( need to protect what little self esteem have left ), and do a lot more work on increasing my code skill in secret, once my c/c++ and GNU toolchain skillset is out of the gutter i can support this project much better, and face Arch devs more on their own terms.

This effort though does have a rather prickly logical conclusion, if you want to be free of systemd then very soon working alternatives for consolekit, polkit, upower, udisks1/2, will have to be found, and indeed with a bit of effort can be found or are already out there. A even bigger job than the core packages. But why not try to make this a positive? Maybe this is a good time to re-examine what a linux based os is, or should be.
I was going to post this at arch, but just get me more flac, so will post it here, please give any comments.

The project
Name to be decided

The Key goals in programming
Efficiency
Speed
Simplicity
elegance
a c/c++ code base
configurability
stability of API's

The key assumptions
The needs of a single user "personal computer" are in contradiction to the needs of a multi-user server.
The majority of computers in the western world are "personal computers" and are only ever booted by one person.
99.9% of all "security" problems come from using the internet, or other network related gateways.
The owner of a computer has paid money for their computer, that money represents work, which represents time out of their very short life. The owner should be GOD to that computer and be in total dominant controll, not the other way round.
Microsoft and Apple own 90%+ of the OS market,it is their desktops that people most recognize and associate with, and that first come to mind when thinking "computer"


The tools
Use existing code wherever possible as long as no key programming goals are compromised
ALL code and ALL programmers are welcome whatever the licence, source or background, as long as the work fits into the key programming goals, and is not overtly illegal.


The Purpose
To create a viable advanced alternative to the concept and actuality of systemd in a desktop context, that fulfills all the key goals in programming, and accepts the key assumptions.


The Advertising
"lets play an association game:
if sysv is like a ford model T
   upstart like a delorian
   systemd like a sherman tank
   openrc like a volvo
then our system is a ferrari"

The Story
Systemd got it right.
    the creators of systemd saw the need for a programming layer between the kernel and os-applications, a app programmer should have easy abstractions to all the hardware resources on a platform, they also saw the need for this layer to be c/c++ based, there is no room for bash spewing processes in a efficient abstraction layer.

Systemd got it wrong.
    the creators of systemd broke almost every one of the "key goals in programming" ( well they do code in c/c++ ), then they failed to accept the first of the "key assumptions" this has led to code that should not be there when used either as a server or as a desktop.

We need to get it right before Linux becomes a joke as a "personal computer"


you know having read it over it could be an advert for archbang smile

....... a joke as a "personal computer"

Money
Redhat Ubuntu and a host of other companies , especially in the embedded world, make money from their efforts in manipulating free software, there is no shame in this.
Given the correct financial model, and a slight expansion of the goals, every member of this project can and will be properly financially recompensed.
The actual financial model will not be disclosed, for obvious reasons, until or if the project becomes a reality


you know having read ....


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#2 2012-09-12 07:57:36

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 2,209

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

pablokal wrote:

this has led to code that should not be there when used either as a server or as a desktop.

Can you define what this means (especially in terms servers)?

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#3 2012-09-12 08:14:26

ArchVortex
Retired
From: Ts’elxweyeqw, Canada
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,465

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

Should we not setup a custom ArchBang repository that can be added to pacman.conf to handle these packages in case Dave or some other Dev pulls the plug on the packages in AUR?


You have the capacity to learn from mistakes. You'll learn a lot today.
FP:E5F8 7DBA 8128 9ACB 75F7 7279 BE34 AB66 76D9 16DE
KEY ID:76D916DE
Currently running ArchBang / LFS / OpenSUSE Tumbleweed

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#4 2012-09-12 08:56:49

Mr Green
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 6,920

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

Might be an idea, was always wary of adding ArchBang specific packages to Aur ... You could use a dropbox account if you cannot find any webspace.


Comments, suggestions please feel free to contact me mrgreen(at)archbang(dot)org

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#5 2012-09-12 09:12:16

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 505

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

If you need some web space for a repository I can offer some at spiralinear.org .

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#6 2012-09-12 12:45:01

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

oliver wrote:
pablokal wrote:

this has led to code that should not be there when used either as a server or as a desktop.

Can you define what this means (especially in terms servers)?

One case is the journal and use of the journal, sysd writes a record of EVERY process transaction, well just about everything regarding EVERY task in the box, to journal metadata. Good for a server, you can roll back from mistakes, malware, anything and still keep going without a reboot. Unfortunately adds a MASSIVE overhead onto disc io especially, but logically to every process as well. If you have ever formatted your disc with

mkfs.ext4 -m 2 -O ^has_journal,extent /dev/sda....

you will know what its like to get rid of just a single journal layer,
On my machine formatted like that i get a 65% ( tested ) increase in disc i/o speed, the friggin thing flies, you really feel that io on a desktop.
God knows what its like with 2 journal layers!.

On a desktop no one gives a damn about a journal, nor do they care about having to reboot occasionally, they do it all the time anyway ! Hence all that code all that overhead useless on a desktop, most people in the "real desktop"world when they get to the point where so many bits of malware and badly written bits of crap have infected their system, that it no longer boots, they go to a shop. Which then backs up personal date re-formats and reloads the os-clean, or they just throw the pc and buy another one.

That is just one case , there are many others within sysd. ( eg servers value security just second to stability, ANY desktop is a nightmare in terms of security, servers especially headless servers do not want or need desktop components to allow avenues of exploitation )

But if one just targeted an os at either one end or another, bang! each side is free of the baggage of the other,

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#7 2012-09-12 13:37:23

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

Just wandered how close you guys are to actually forking ?, you def got the resources and experience both on the web and technically, and given whats happened in the arch forums recently, defiantly the will smile

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#8 2012-09-12 13:52:01

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

Well, for starters, resource-wise?, we are definitely gonna need repos, and eventually stuff like this, will have to be "changed", as mentioned in a similar thread:

...
Registrar: Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
Status: CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED, CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
...

These all may be little things, but they will have to be dealt with, nonetheless.
A more modifiable, controllable Web/forum/wiki/DNS/..., only makes more "secure" sense, in the long run.
Edit; I know... we already knew that part smile

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-12 14:05:12)

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#9 2012-09-12 14:00:12

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

can this please be added to the bottom of the header post ?



....... a joke as a "personal computer"

Money
Redhat Ubuntu and a host of other companies , especially in the embedded world, make money from their efforts in manipulating free software, there is no shame in this.
Given the correct financial model, and a slight expansion of the goals, every member of this project can and will be properly financially recompensed.
The actual financial model will not be disclosed, for obvious reasons, until or if the project becomes a reality



you know having read ....

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#10 2012-09-12 14:15:19

scjet
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,468

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi wrote:

can this please be added to the bottom of the header post ?



....... a joke as a "personal computer"

Money
Redhat Ubuntu and a host of other companies , especially in the embedded world, make money from their efforts in manipulating free software, there is no shame in this.
Given the correct financial model, and a slight expansion of the goals, every member of this project can and will be properly financially recompensed.
The actual financial model will not be disclosed, for obvious reasons, until or if the project becomes a reality



you know having read ....

Careful now,
we love you,
but not that much (yet).
Ok, I lied, we do.
Was that a joke ?
ok, I get it now.

From,
The Billing/Accounting Department:
smile

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-12 14:19:10)

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#11 2012-09-16 05:37:13

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Jubei proposes project, viable alternative for systmd on desktop

smile smile smile, bill you guys ? not on your life smile smile smile smile

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