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#1 2012-08-28 21:59:18

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-9 … ight-.html

Fantastic freaking news that means we don't have to have our Arch systems contaminated with poetteringd and let Arch become ArchHat.


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#2 2012-08-29 04:56:05

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Thanks for this great news.
The thread is a must read for people wondering where all the fuss about systemd is about.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#3 2012-08-29 23:39:23

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

I'm running a dirty install of the forked udev with libcap, dbus, etc. with Arch and removed systemd-tools. So far so good. I believe that there are more than enough capable and talented Arch, Gentoo, Slackware, and Debian Linux users to maintain, create forks and improve the current Linux ecosystem setups so we don't have to be assimilated by the Borg and Lennax. If Arch Devs are going to proceed in the systemd path and not give Arch users a choice (I believe users should be able to run systemd if they so wish), then we (ArchBang) can fork Arch and maintain the pre-systemd status quo. So far Tom has said he will maintain initscripts for as long as possible. I also hope that he, or one of the other Devs will look into the possibility of running the current/old system with forks if possible so Arch users can continue to enjoy Arch. As the saying goes, "Arch is what you make it." (And not how Lennart makes us make it)


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#4 2012-08-30 02:52:09

scjet
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

good one !
That thread (and that code) isn't exactly "light" reading, but it is very interesting. -Hey!, and I hope you have enjoyed your holidays Stan, welcome back !  smile

anyway, but as far as Arch is concerned: this http://allanmcrae.com/2012/08/switching … o-systemd/ is where Arch itself will be going, and likely "without" a choice, but you already knew that.
Personally, I am no more against systemd, than I am against the tried-n-true rc/init scripts. I, and obviously many others, are just against limiting Users to only "this, or that", when obviously both "this and/or that" are both still fully supported - (init-wise; aka Debian, Slack*, Gentoo, *BSD's, ...), and therefore should be a "User's" freedom of choice.
I guess Debian may possibly one-day port systemd over for their GNU/kFreeBSD project, even so, that will not be for awhile -if at all, and that may or may not help all the *BSD's problems with "systemd" out there either.
sad
...any help the *BSD's can get out there, these days, is a godsend. Even "BSD/Unix", is still a Free "Operating System", -it's NOT just some rotting-roadkill to be ignored.

But, Ya I know, sry, don't get me wrong, this is an ArchBang/Linux forum, so I'll shutup now.
wink

Last edited by scjet (2012-08-30 06:19:36)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#5 2012-08-30 07:04:00

oliver
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Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

ArchVortex wrote:

If Arch Devs are going to proceed in the systemd path and not give Arch users a choice (I believe users should be able to run systemd if they so wish), then we (ArchBang) can fork Arch and maintain the pre-systemd status quo.

One of the problems is that eventually, the pacstrap scripts supplied by Arch will only install systemd.  So if you install fresh, your options are to either rewrite the scripts or wait for the install to complete and then strip it out, supplementing it with your own choice.  Not impossible, but it would take someone with real dedication to the non-systemd cause to maintain.

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#6 2012-08-30 13:44:30

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
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Posts: 3,206
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

I think  that we should act on the basis of the present situation.
So present an new  iso that refrains from using systemd and uses the good things of the gentoo udev script.

We don't know at all how the situation will evolve,  what will happen with Arch; there may be more dissenters and projects coming from that. I think we won't be alone in this and may even attract coders to support our direction if we make sticking to initscripts our position....so many factors are uncertain for the coming half year. for instance if we feel like going on with AB in a half year time or so. I think what AV proposes will give the AB project a new impulse and a raison d'etre.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#7 2012-08-30 18:44:34

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

It's hard NOT to agree with all the "sentiments" here:
But what came to mind, just now,  is Mr. G's futuristic quote from: http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?pid=17603#p17603
"...Bring systemd to the party and a fight is soon going to break out......"
Meaning, maybe we also should not invite too much "dissent" within the ranks. ?
He's right, it's not about "systemd", it's what we may let 'ourselves' become, that can be dangerous for archbang too, despite "systemd". ?!
(btw, @Mr. Green, if I'm wrong about my meaning/use of this, then please accept my apology).

Am I giving into the probable and/or eventual possible incorporation of "systemd" within Arch ?
Yes, and NO.
The "Yes' in me says: "I'm not a kernel-developer, therefore I should just shutup", but the "NO" in me asks:"where's the "Freedom of Choice" going regarding OpenSource ?"
I know the Yes/No makes no sense, but it's hard to want the best for all Users, and not have some constraints, at the same time. -and Nobody likes "constraints".

Linux has overtaken Windows in the Server world -hands down, and now with Win8 Linux will slowly finish them off in the PC/Desktop (whatever is left of it, after everyone goes to iPAD's, Androids, and other masturbating items,...)  -Yes, I'm being satirical. -imho.

But this "power" will come at certain costs that are inevitable.

wheeew, ok, now I need my "favourite" beverage, and a couple more to "boot".

So, I'm with whatever direction(s) you guys/gals go.
smile

Geezus, now I know I'm partially "that" Canadian, <- we take it on the chin, and still "agree" with ALL parties concerned. -LOL.

Last edited by scjet (2012-08-30 19:16:55)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#8 2012-08-31 02:05:33

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Meaning, maybe we also should not invite too much "dissent" within the ranks. ?

To me it is quite simple that we see a development some of us vehemently don't like; some of us are  bit less critical of it, see it as not such an important matter of principle.
That is not a problem at all, here in this community we can handle differences of opinion; the only problem is coming to a decision
which course to follow with the new iso and  try to foresee what that brings.

He's right, it's not about "systemd", it's what we may let 'ourselves' become, that can be dangerous for archbang too, despite "systemd". ?!

The meaning of this sentence is lost on me; could you explain?


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#9 2012-08-31 05:07:13

scjet
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Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

pablokal wrote:

Meaning, maybe we also should not invite too much "dissent" within the ranks. ?

To me it is quite simple that we see a development some of us vehemently don't like; some of us are  bit less critical of it, see it as not such an important matter of principle.
That is not a problem at all, here in this community we can handle differences of opinion; the only problem is coming to a decision
which course to follow with the new iso and  try to foresee what that brings.

He's right, it's not about "systemd", it's what we may let 'ourselves' become, that can be dangerous for archbang too, despite "systemd". ?!

The meaning of this sentence is lost on me; could you explain?

Yes sry, I could have more easily just said: "systemd" is not worth losing friends over it " ? -so to speak.
I also respect the people with the a more "vehement" or I guess "critical" stand for the sake of Arch's contol, and/or development directions ?
But becuase, I myself, don't know enough about "development" -it makes me feel rather useless, sometimes.

Arch is definitely going thruogh too fast of a rate of change, ritgh now, for my liking.

Last edited by scjet (2012-08-31 05:14:32)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#10 2012-08-31 06:23:12

ratcheer
Member
Registered: 2011-10-08
Posts: 113

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

My two cents worth:

I will be dropping Arch soon over the systemd issue. I am not a developer and I have no question or problem with the technical merits of systemd, in fact, it is working wonderfully well on my system. My issue is software freedom, which is what brought me to Linux in the first place.

I have already dropped Ubuntu for several issues of freedom, with "the straw that broke the camel's back" being their decision to more or less go along with Microsoft's secure boot stance.

Yes, I know that it does not matter to anyone else whether I leave Arch Linux. I am just saying that if Archbang Linux were to take a path of rejecting systemd, I would be much more attracted to AB, as Pablokal suggests. Right now, I am digging through several distros to find a good one that is not rolling down the path to systemd. Right now, Siduction Linux seems to be the best, but they will probably fold in whenever Debian does. Trisquel? Probably the same. Gentoo? Only with the proposed udev fork. I am starting to ramble, so I will stop.

Can I learn to become a Linux system developer at age 61 and help with this? I used to be a pretty good IBM mainframe systems programmer. And I was a damn good Oracle DBA. I'm sure I could learn to contribute something.

Tim

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#11 2012-08-31 08:09:39

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

@scjet I'm also that Canadian .)


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#12 2012-08-31 08:22:22

oliver
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Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

ratcheer wrote:

I will be dropping Arch soon over the systemd issue. I am not a developer and I have no question or problem with the technical merits of systemd, in fact, it is working wonderfully well on my system. My issue is software freedom, which is what brought me to Linux in the first place.

Just playing devils advocate, but you still have the freedom to run whatever init system you want.  Your only problem will be if no-one in Archland wants to maintain the old framework and it drops behind in support (and you're unwilling to maintain it yourself)

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#13 2012-08-31 11:10:42

Mr Green
^! Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Could we support init system? its a collection of bash scripts after all? if anything we could simplify it... What about a single config file call it rc.conf wink


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#14 2012-08-31 13:42:47

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

I think this last question is answered by Archvortex elsewhere, when he found out he couldn't update without accepting systemd


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#15 2012-08-31 13:56:26

oliver
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Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

That *might* be due to the merging of systemd/udev into one package.  Just a guess

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#16 2012-08-31 14:14:49

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

You are right; now I remember doing that update , when it was mentioned that udev now was part of systemd; didn't know about systemd and the implications then, so I accepted.
So probably you can get rid of systemd but have to accept it with each new update of systemd  and then have to dump it again; that is not a workable situation.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#17 2012-08-31 14:24:43

oliver
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Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Definitely a real pain

TBH, this is my only real complaint about systemd... technically it seems to work well and might even have benefits (especially the analyze stuff) - but why bundle udev with it?  Seems to be a "marketing" decision rather than a "technical" one.

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#18 2012-08-31 15:04:14

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Debian dev develops convert script to change systemd to sysvinit: Debian testing a systemd-to-sysvinit converter: http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/ … 70713.html


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#19 2012-09-01 11:42:57

sandman6471
Member
Registered: 2011-05-28
Posts: 6

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Hi,  I'm not a coder, I don't write bash scripts, I have learned to do a little editing of scripts.  I loved and still love AB but, there are just to many things coming down the line at one time.  I spent more time tying to resolve issues than I did using and
enjoying the system.  For that reason I have moved on, I tried several distro's  and I found a new home with Sabayon 9 and XFCE and haven't had a problem yet(knock on wood).  I hope and pray that Arch and AB can come to a conclusion in the
near future and make AB the great distro it once was. I am waiting in the wings to come back to AB when things are finally resolved, and thanks you those of you who will step up and help make AB what it once was.

Thanks.
God Bless.
Sandman6471

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#20 2012-09-01 13:03:21

scjet
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Hey thanks @sandman6471, for those gracious words.
I know we'll all see each other again, once bitten by arch(bang), I know you'll check it out now and then, again.
And you're right, from the "ArchBang OverLord" to the Mod's, and Admin's, ..., here, you won't find a better bunch of people working to make Archbang! the best.
GL
smile

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-01 13:08:45)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#21 2012-09-04 15:25:17

aline
Member
Registered: 2012-09-03
Posts: 5

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

I'm not using archbang, just "pure" arch linux but I came across this thread and as I was looking for a way to get rid of systemd while keep using arch linux, this udev package came to help me do the task.

So I downloaded old PKGBUILDs from udev and initramfs from arch svn.

This is my PKGBUILD from the udev fork: http://pastebin.com/L5ZTkBVC

And this is the old PKGBUILD from initscripts: http://pastebin.com/LAjxTpEZ

I've installed both, rebooted. There are a lot of packages that is linked against udev libraries, so I had to rebuild all of then. For this I use yaourt + customizepkg-new from aur. For most of the packages I only had to create a empty file in /etc/customizepkg.d/. For example xorg-server, I have a empty file /etc/customizepkg.d/xorg-server

So now I have a completely systemd-free system, running pure Arch Linux and in sync with arch repositories. The downside is that I need to build a couple of packages every time I do an upgrade (yaourt -Syua). Maybe Archbang could host the udev dependencies in a custom repository in order to keep it systemd-free? It wouldn't be too hard.

Last edited by aline (2012-09-04 15:27:19)

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#22 2012-09-04 15:37:24

pablokal
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From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Hi Aline, Thanks very much for your info & work. I hope we will be able to use this.
I didn't knew about customizepkg-new: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=31646

Could you please give more details about what programs needed to be adapted and how many in total? Maybe a ls of that folder of yours, customizepkg.d
Do you notice any chance in performance; I guess not.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
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#23 2012-09-04 16:28:27

aline
Member
Registered: 2012-09-03
Posts: 5

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Hi Pablokal,

My system is very minimal (Awesome WM as DE) but as archbang users seens to be running openbox/fluxbox it shouldn't be too different.

This is the packages i had to rebuild because of udev

lvm2 (includes device-mapper)
libatasmart
mesa (because libgbm included)
udisks
xf86-input-evdev
xf86-video-ati (probably we need to rebuild any other graphic driver)
xorg-server

In order to build mesa I had to add this in /etc/customizepkg.d/mesa:
replace#global#cd \\${srcdir}/?esa-\\*#cd \\${srcdir}/Mesa-\\*

Otherwise the source package gets confused by a patch whose name starts with "mesa-*".

EDIT: dbus-core need rebuild
/etc/customizepkg.d/dbus-core

remove#depends#libsystemd
remove#depends#systemd-tools
remove#global#--enable-systemd
replace#global#--with-systemdsystemunitdir=/usr/lib/systemd/system#--disable-systemd

Last edited by aline (2012-09-05 20:56:05)

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#24 2012-09-04 16:30:28

aline
Member
Registered: 2012-09-03
Posts: 5

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

As for performance, I don't see any difference. Everything is running smooth.

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#25 2012-09-04 17:48:32

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Do people see systemd versus sysinit as a technical or philosophical issue (or both)?  Just wondering.

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#26 2012-09-04 19:36:42

aline
Member
Registered: 2012-09-03
Posts: 5

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

oliver wrote:

Do people see systemd versus sysinit as a technical or philosophical issue (or both)?  Just wondering.

The first linux distro that I installed, around 2001/2002 was Conectiva, a brazilian commercial distro, the first rpm/apt-get distro. It was a lot harder than Ubuntu today but still it had tools to ease the installation and administration, some redhat based, others debian based or just tools created by their own developers. For a begginner this is exacly what I wanted: a system to help me get started in the Linux world. From there I used Debian in my desktop computers for years until I got in love with FreeBSD. I used FBSD for around 2 years. One of the things I like about it is the simplicity: the ports, the facility to change configure options for any package, the simple ncurses interface to tweak frequently switch options and above everything the magnificent rc.conf. In the rc.conf from FreeBSD you can configure network interfaces, daemons, add any aditional arguments to daemons, console fonts, console keyboard and a lot more than you could imagine.

But when I started to use laptops then I had to deal with hardware limitations (sound card, wireless) so I switched back to the Linux world. At first I went back to Debian but after experimenting the wonders of FBSD I felt like I wanted something more. So I started to use Gentoo. I like gentoo. portage has a lot of features still missing in FBSD like parallel-fetch. But there are some things in Gentoo that I don't like: use flags. The use flag is a interface to tweak packages. Is very easy to tweak packages with already existing use flags but if you need to divert a little the things get too harder. Also, the use flags hides what it really does: for example, some use flags may change an option in configure, while others may add another package and other may change CFLAGS. But this process is not transparent for the user. We don't see what is it doing, so we don't really learn how to tweak packages but how to configure portage.

So I discovered Arch Linux. Binary packages, but pacman and the easy to use PKGBUILD. PKGBUILD was a wonder for me because of the facility to create packages. Not time consuming like rpm specs, or  debian control. And i don't have to get the hard way of creating a local overlay only for custom ebuilds like I had to do in gentoo. No, better. I create my own PKGBUILD, and upload it to aur so I can share to everyone. And more: arch linux has it's own rc.conf. It's not as fantastic as FBSD one, but still was one of the main things who made me keep in arch linux.

I'm running arch now for around 3 years and for the first time I was like feeling that this is the distro I want to keep. Very easy for an advanced user. Or it was. There is some discussions about the change from /bin to /usr/bin, from grub to grub2. These things hasn't really bother me but systemd replacing the BSD init simplicity and the end of rc.conf is too much for me. Around a month ago I decided to switch to systemd. I did. And it worked at the begginning with no big deal. Boot faster? No it was a bit slower. But really, it doesn't really bother me the boot time. What bothers me is the simplicity to tweak and diagnose the init scripts. systemd makes everything too harder. If a daemon has not started you may not notice it unless you execute something like 'systemctl status daemon.service'. systemd creates too much complexty for simple tasks. And is harder to debug anything. So after a week I decided to restore the old system from my backups and now I'm back to good old BSD sysvinit and rc.conf. And I'm a lot happier now.

Last edited by aline (2012-09-04 20:12:59)

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#27 2012-09-05 06:54:05

ratcheer
Member
Registered: 2011-10-08
Posts: 113

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

oliver wrote:

Do people see systemd versus sysinit as a technical or philosophical issue (or both)?  Just wondering.

For me, it is a philosophical issue.

Maybe I am just an old geezer. *IX has been the way it has been for as long as I can remember. systemd seems to be a fundamental change. Has anyone else noticed that after systemd has been fully implemented, the simple command "init 6" is no longer recognized by the system? I couldn't begin to remember how long I've been using "init 6" to reboot.

On a more practical level, it used to be that when something changed, we would have to take note of the change and go fiddle with stuff to ensure that the proper services were configured and started in the proper way and in the proper order. In other words, we knew what was going on in our systems. But, with systemd, it all just comes in via the package manager, works, and everyone is fat, dumb, and happy. Just like Windows and Macintosh.

Many of us migrated from Windows or Mac to Linux simply because we realized that we had little or no control over our systems, our computing experience. udev and systemd are a huge step toward Linux becoming that way, too.

Tim

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#28 2012-09-05 08:22:41

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

aline and ratcheer - thanks for your insight

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#29 2012-09-05 12:36:14

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Thanks< aline for your additional info an both ratcheer  and aline for their answers regarding systemd.

What bothers me is the simplicity to tweak and diagnose the init scripts. systemd makes everything too harder. If a daemon has not started you may not notice it unless you execute something like 'systemctl status daemon.service'. systemd creates too much complexty for simple tasks. And is harder to debug anything. So after a week I decided to restore the old system from my backups and now I'm back to good old BSD sysvinit and rc.conf. And I'm a lot happier now.

As much transparency for the user as possible is essential, because transparency means user control.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#30 2012-09-06 00:55:04

Mr Green
^! Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

You can blend the two systems together at the moment, systemd can use rc.conf etc.. or you can go full systemd.

At this time Arch dual installer is still init based...yet install process is more systemd based [confused!]

Something we need to think about for ArchBang


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#31 2012-09-07 05:51:58

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

hi all, just to let you know looks like im up to the same thing,

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=148429

I am trying to bring all this work from here and gentoo, together into a real credible systemd alternative. But to do that one must present a real credible init replacement.
Initscripts...... will be unmaintained, is bash based
openrc.......... nightmare to port, slow
upstart......... no! smile
sysV............ toooo old.

So i propose runit

http://smarden.org/runit/

a few people at arch have been using it through the AUR and VERY VERY VERY impressed, i have contacted the author about possible expansion, waiting for a reply.
I actually think this could be quite exiting smile

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#32 2012-09-07 07:37:12

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Trying it this weekend https://github.com/chneukirchen/ignite. Also trying my hand at making a stage 3 ArchBang tarball that will install like Gentoo. If successful and not too time consuming then there could be weekly AB snapshots for more advanced users to play with.


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#33 2012-09-07 09:18:32

Mr Green
^! Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Interesting idea, can you host a repo here on archbang.org? or you could use sourceforge....

We are so close to a fully working abinstall again, was really hoping to get test isos out... then bam fontconfig!

How configured is a stage3 install? if you can relate it too Arch


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#34 2012-09-07 09:24:46

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#35 2012-09-07 12:51:45

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi, thanks very much for your input here.
As you see there are many solutions tried and developed; the most easy to implement and the most robust will survive.
Please keep us informed; so people from here will also be able to test things out.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#36 2012-09-07 13:10:08

Mr Green
^! Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

@ArchVortex base does include kernel, but no bootloader.... creating a script to grab & unpack would not be a problem. Why not just use arch-install-scripts? [pacstrap /mnt base <insert boot loader here>]

Base install plus syslinux -- cleaned cache 601Mb


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#37 2012-09-10 03:00:22

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

pablokal wrote:

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi, thanks very much for your input here.
As you see there are many solutions tried and developed; the most easy to implement and the most robust will survive.
Please keep us informed; so people from here will also be able to test things out.

Hi well have commited
dbus-core-lsd 1.7.4-1
device-mapper-lsd 2.03.97-1
initscripts-lsd 2012.10.1-1
libgbm-lsd 8.1.4-3
lvm2-lsd 2.03.97-1
mkinitcpio-lsd 0.20-1
udev-lsd 189-4
udev-lsd-fork 189-1

to the AUR, and you can get a working no-systemd system now, BUT its not going well, obviously i have pissed off  the Arch devs GREATLY by doing this, am on the AUR with a large target painted on my back, and am finding it difficult to keep my patience. Their biggest bugbear (at the moment ) is udev, udev-lsd is based on udev 182, and udev-lsd-fork is ailen's udev fork PKGBUILD. Both are not drop-in replacements, 182 fails to provide the correct libs, -fork has an incorrect soname.
Now if my books are correct a soname is just a textstring in the code and hence udev-fork can be patched to work ? which would be the way to go. I dont know if udev-fork's writers can be persuaded to provide such a patch, i doubt they can be bothered since one of the writers got a good dressing down by a Arch dev, in public on the thread. So that leaves me! a friggin electronics design engineer with nowhere near enough pure code experience to patch the bugger !!! Like i said not going well smile
The devs attitude is the most depressing, they should just have the balls to ban the project and the packages from AUR instead of this continual incepid criticism.

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#38 2012-09-10 03:17:39

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

The devs attitude is the most depressing, they should just have the balls to ban the project and the packages from AUR instead of this continual incepid criticism.

Why does that doesn't surprise me at all?
If you walk out of the herd in the Arch community, you will be targeted by the sect leaders.
The reason they find it difficult to ban you because always their answer to criticism is," if you don't like it, change it!"
As you are doing exactly this, they will lose even more their face if they ban you from AUR.

I would advice you to keep your arguments in AUR as practical, as matter of fact as possible. No emotional outbursts, they can't be touched that way and they only will get the feeling they have got you.
Feel free to use these forums for an open discussion about your effort to keep up this alternative; as I'm not a coder myself, I can't help you out here.

The forum thread on the arch forums is here: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=148429&p=1
It is again a disgusting example of the Arch devs mentality.
An example:

Call it udev-braindamaged, udev-braindead, or udev-nos (to get the real ricer effect).

from falconindy https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 5#p1158275


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#39 2012-09-10 05:14:49

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

yea the way he treated gr3y_d0t was just not on, that was a fellow coder he was talking to, joint author of udev-fork, he should have shown even a little professional courtesy. That would have been totally unacceptable in my profession, engineers co-operate ALWAYS, ok we have heated exchanges but always under the framework of getting the job done, and making it work.
Im not going to give up, but defiantly going to post less on the arch forums, ( need to protect what little self esteem have left ), and do a lot more work on increasing my code skill in secret, once my c/c++ and GNU toolchain skillset is out of the gutter i can support this project much better, and face Arch devs more on their own terms.

This effort though does have a rather prickly logical conclusion, if you want to be free of systemd then very soon working alternatives for consolekit, polkit, upower, udisks1/2, will have to be found, and indeed with a bit of effort can be found or are already out there. A even bigger job than the core packages. But why not try to make this a positive? Maybe this is a good time to re-examine what a linux based os is, or should be.
I was going to post this at arch, but just get me more flac, so will post it here, please give any comments.


The project
Name to be decided

The Key goals in programming
Efficiency
Speed
Simplicity
elegance
a c/c++ code base
configurability
stability of API's


The key assumptions
The needs of a single user "personal computer" are in contradiction to the needs of a multi-user server.
The majority of computers in the western world are "personal computers" and are only ever booted by one person.
99.9% of all "security" problems come from using the internet, or other network related gateways.
The owner of a computer has paid money for their computer, that money represents work, which represents time out of their very short life. The owner should be GOD to that computer and be in total dominant controll, not the other way round.
Microsoft and Apple own 90%+ of the OS market,it is their desktops that people most recognize and associate with, and that first come to mind when thinking "computer"



The tools
Use existing code wherever possible as long as no key programming goals are compromised
ALL code and ALL programmers are welcome whatever the licence, source or background, as long as the work fits into the key programming goals, and is not overtly illegal.



The Purpose
To create a viable advanced alternative to the concept and actuality of systemd in a desktop context, that fulfills all the key goals in programming, and accepts the key assumptions.



The Advertising
"lets play an association game:
if sysv is like a ford model T
   upstart like a delorian
   systemd like a sherman tank
   openrc like a volvo
then our system is a ferrari"


The Story
Systemd got it right.
    the creators of systemd saw the need for a programming layer between the kernel and os-applications, a app programmer should have easy abstractions to all the hardware resources on a platform, they also saw the need for this layer to be c/c++ based, there is no room for bash spewing processes in a efficient abstraction layer.

Systemd got it wrong.
    the creators of systemd broke almost every one of the "key goals in programming" ( well they do code in c/c++ ), then they failed to accept the first of the "key assumptions" this has led to code that should not be there when used either as a server or as a desktop.

We need to get it right before Linux becomes a joke as a "personal computer"



you know having read it over it could be an advert for archbang smile

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#40 2012-09-10 08:28:53

scjet
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

The devs attitude is the most depressing, they should just have the balls to ban the project and the packages from AUR instead of this continual incepid criticism.

...Yep, but of course, even if you're just a "User" they don't mind "Banning" you if you "criticize" THEM though. smile

Needless to say, Thankyou very much "Jubei-Mitsuyoshi", for your effort in all this.

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-10 08:31:22)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#41 2012-09-10 08:32:38

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 500

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

More power to you Jubei-Mitsuyoshi!

Some of the posts in "that" Arch forum thread were really quite disappointing attitude wise. You did well keeping your attitude humble, enthusiastic & respectful (I liked the virus comment wink) under the circumstances.

I'm becoming anti-systemd due to the steamrollering attitude that is coming down from upstream & from some of the devs.

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#42 2012-09-10 08:52:08

marxav
Member
From: Gatineau, Qc
Registered: 2012-08-27
Posts: 43

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

handy wrote:

I'm becoming anti-systemd due to the steamrollering attitude that is coming down from upstream & from some of the devs.

Strangely I have the same feeling.  I am not anti-change au contraire.  But how change is perceived is often related to how it was managed.  If managed at all.  I found that, unfortunately, the arrogancy level on Arch forum has increased by order of magnitues in the last year or two.  It is very unfortunate because Arch is quite something.

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#43 2012-09-10 10:21:49

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

I wonder if the Devs have just given up with upstream and taken the easy way out, or are receiving "incentives" from Red Hat to conform to the Borg invasion and assimilation to systemd. These changes are making me cheer for Mark and Ubumtu vs. systemd. It also makes me wonder how long my longtime distros, Gentoo and Slackware can hold off.

It seems like Arch Linux Forums has turned into Iran Linux Forums; the Devs being the Guardian Council, the TU's the Revolutionary Guards and the Moderators of the Forum being the Basij that quell any dissension amongst the peons.


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#44 2012-09-10 12:54:48

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

HA!!!!! got a patch for udev-fork, to work with Arch ( as drop-n with no recompiling )


diff --git a/Makefile.am b/Makefile.am
index ed86c4c..c2a725f 100644
--- a/Makefile.am
+++ b/Makefile.am
@@ -6,12 +6,12 @@ SUBDIRS = .
ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS = -I m4 ${ACLOCAL_FLAGS}
AM_MAKEFLAGS = --no-print-directory

-LIBUDEV_CURRENT=13
-LIBUDEV_REVISION=4
-LIBUDEV_AGE=0
+LIBUDEV_CURRENT=2
+LIBUDEV_REVISION=0
+LIBUDEV_AGE=1

LIBGUDEV_CURRENT=1
-LIBGUDEV_REVISION=1
+LIBGUDEV_REVISION=2
LIBGUDEV_AGE=1

AM_CPPFLAGS = \



many thanks to grey_dot from gentoo, fuck me what a difference between gentoo and Arch, i just asked for pointers and bang few hours later here is the entire patch all done for me, At arch you will be lucky if a dev even replies, then when they do you wish they had not smile
It makes me think what the hell am i doing at arch when i run a gentoo partition.
Anyway, this patch should be the last piece for a complete drop-in replacement for systemd, just got to prove it, stick it in the package and we are away!!!!
Unfortunatly the author of runit is nowhere to be found, im very afraid development on that has stopped, shame, was really counting on that init system.
Worse still i am going on holiday soon, so will be a pause for a few weeks, REALLY want to get this patch done before i go.

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#45 2012-09-10 13:43:09

scjet
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

... "incentives" from Red Hat...

.
That is more than just plainly true, when you work with a corp/university,..., you work within "their" boundaries, 'cause you're being paid.
It's not "Arch" running those servers/desktop's/..., who "Allan" works for, it's in fact RHEL, so obviously it's in ibm's/redhat's/oracle's interest to promote/nudge/... that. I know, 'cause I've been there when IBM offered huge "incentives" to a corp I worked for, way back when, just for us to leave Sun/Solaris, or the then "free" Redhat 7/8, ...,  -it happens all the time.
BTW, we got burnt by IBM/RHEL, and eventually just upgraded to Solaris 10, and also CentOS, and OpenBSD instead, for our 100's of apache servers. 'cause IBM wanted some too serious hook$ in us, but we left them. We instead paid for professional (Linux) service(s) when needed. -and there's nuthin' wrong with that, 'cause other entities also benefit, in the long run too.

The funny thing is, it's nobody's fault, and you go where you can, but if a pig is "pig", then for gawd sakes, then atleast call it a "PIG", don't beat around the bush. !
ArchHat, and I do mean "ArchHat", is where "Arch" is obviously going right now, to deny that is simply blindness. It's not about good, or bad, meaning, whether "systemd" is better or not?, it's about the "Freedom To Choose" (without prejudice, or malice/crticism), that is more important for the Linux's, BSD's,... than anything else, believe it or not, -for whatever that is worth.
That philosophy alone, is in great danger of being snuffed-out in Arch.

Once again, thankyou @Jubei-Mitsuyoshi for you're continued care and efforts in all of this.
smile

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-10 14:10:36)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#46 2012-09-10 18:28:17

chneukirchen
Member
Registered: 2012-09-10
Posts: 1

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi wrote:

Unfortunatly the author of runit is nowhere to be found, im very afraid development on that has stopped, shame, was really counting on that init system.

The last release is from 2009.  It's feature complete by now. smile

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#47 2012-09-10 21:15:50

gerbil
Member
Registered: 2012-09-10
Posts: 1

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

ArchVortex wrote:

I wonder if the Devs have just given up with upstream and taken the easy way out, or are receiving "incentives" from Red Hat to conform to the Borg invasion and assimilation to systemd. These changes are making me cheer for Mark and Ubumtu vs. systemd. It also makes me wonder how long my longtime distros, Gentoo and Slackware can hold off.

It seems like Arch Linux Forums has turned into Iran Linux Forums; the Devs being the Guardian Council, the TU's the Revolutionary Guards and the Moderators of the Forum being the Basij that quell any dissension amongst the peons.

I think it'd be wise to avoid such ridiculous speculation without any actual evidence.

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#48 2012-09-11 00:33:38

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 500

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

This is what my fedora 15 lxde/openbox system says:

handy ~  $  ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd*
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 872000 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  24504 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-ac-power
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  38192 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-binfmt
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  29672 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-cgroups-agent
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  42688 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-coredump
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  58312 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-cryptsetup
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  46680 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-fsck
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  67848 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-hostnamed
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  42200 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-initctl
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 146448 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-journald
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  82976 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-localed
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 204984 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-logind
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  41888 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-modules-load
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  29672 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-multi-seat-x
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  33776 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-quotacheck
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  33880 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-random-seed
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  50840 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-readahead-collect
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  38360 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-readahead-replay
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  34000 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-remount-fs
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  25608 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-reply-password
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  69096 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-shutdown
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  46408 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-shutdownd
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  34032 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-sleep
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  42416 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-sysctl
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  67560 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-timedated
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  21184 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-timestamp
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  29712 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-uaccess
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  42272 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-update-utmp
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  42368 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-user-sessions
-rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  38144 Jun 26 21:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-vconsole-setup
handy ~  $  

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#49 2012-09-11 03:27:22

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Reacting to Jubei's post, no 39: I think it is getting too big in your head.
Maybe it will become  big working on it. But keep your goals as limited and as simple  as possible.
We need working solutions, grand visions and more ambitious goals should evolve naturally from the force of the project and the people identifying with it.
So make one step at a time; the key now is to find  a group of experienced coders that want to create a lasting alternative to systemd.


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#50 2012-09-11 05:10:32

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

pablokal wrote:

Reacting to Jubei's post, no 39: I think it is getting too big in your head.
Maybe it will become  big working on it. But keep your goals as limited and as simple  as possible.
We need working solutions, grand visions and more ambitious goals should evolve naturally from the force of the project and the people identifying with it.
So make one step at a time; the key now is to find  a group of experienced coders that want to create a lasting alternative to systemd.


yes TOTALLY agreed, im not the sort to normally post something so pompous, im not a manager smile ( sorry below belt, a lot of managers do a good job ), and its not like im planning to do or head any of this, but i am a systems designer and am used to seeing the big picture, trends and the future in general, ( btw in this i am never wrong ), no one has ever really sat down and started thinking from basics in the linux community, (a task apple started 16 years ago, with obvious payoff now ), so thought would kick off a debate in that direction.
Bit off topic though, do you think i should comment it out and put in another thread or something ?
The udev issue is still a problem, some guy on that https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=148429 damn thread thinks patching is a very bad idea, any of you sensible guys know what he is pointing at ?

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#51 2012-09-11 13:17:44

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Excellent, upstream beauties at udev-fork have kindly changed the sonames at source https://bitbucket.org/braindamaged/udev … ffa0f6c22f, no patch required, no stick for patching smile I think they will update their tarball soon which will make things easier, for the mean time i will look at how to git build it in a package.

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#52 2012-09-12 04:51:25

pablokal
Administrator
From: Nijmegen, Holland
Registered: 2010-10-12
Posts: 3,206
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

@Jubei: Keep us informed and thanks again for all your great efforts.

To discuss the bigger picture I invite people to join in on  a separate thread which I created: http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?id=3374


Getting your questions answered here at ArchBang Forums
Please! Always give hardware info, if there is a chance that 's relevant: #lspci -vnn
On Arch(bang) and Openbox: http://stillstup.blogspot.com/

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#53 2012-09-12 05:52:29

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Thank you very much smile

Well things are progressing, udev is really entwined within systemd, but not impossible to extract there is a patch http://www.spinics.net/lists/hotplug/msg05507.html which looks promising if scary from a maintenance point of view.
The udev-fork is totally the way to go but requires re-compilation of some packages ( looking at it via script ), which is not good for a lot of arch users, great for me smile, the soname patch/upstream change does work but some progs that use lvm2/device-mapper complain (but still work), its just that i cant have anything complaining, its got to be right.
For a real technical breakdown of just how hard it is to properly extract udev just read that http://www.spinics.net/lists/hotplug/msg05507.html thread all the way up and down, the guys that created the patch are working on a better solution by cutting up the Makefile.am, but its going to take time.
What really got my attention was this http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/vie … /udev.html which i am working on as we speak.
All the other packages that need to be modified have been done, ready to go into the AUR, we just need udev nailed then thats it:)
At the moment syslog-ng fails without systemd, even though its not an official dep, have rebuilt it and its on the AUR list but it just shows there will be a lot more of these cases and we will have to deal with them as they come up.
The thread seems to have cooled down for some reason ( maybe someone had a word, dont know, dont care, anything that gets in the way of completion is a bad thing, that includes bearing grudges, ).
So yes all in all looking good, not a min to soon though, has anyone checked the new install image?, are we over to full systemd yet ?

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#54 2012-09-12 06:16:55

Mr Green
^! Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

arch media is still using initscripts at the moment, structure of config files have changed as you are aware. rc.conf is no longer the main config file.

Problem is how long can you support udev-fork until it is completely absorbed by systemd?

Managed to get rid of consolekit and still use slim....


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#55 2012-09-12 07:55:35

oliver
Administrator
Registered: 2010-11-04
Posts: 1,913

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi wrote:

All the other packages that need to be modified have been done, ready to go into the AUR, we just need udev nailed then thats it:)

Do you mean stuff that specifically requires udev?

How do you see things like apache/mysql working once Arch starts shipping them with systemd service files instead of rc.d startup scripts?  Write your own?  Another package with just startup scripts?

Don't take this as a criticism, just wondering.  I've been going thru the reverse process with systemd (finding service files to replace rc.d scripts)

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#56 2012-09-12 09:21:11

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

oliver wrote:
Jubei-Mitsuyoshi wrote:

All the other packages that need to be modified have been done, ready to go into the AUR, we just need udev nailed then thats it:)

Do you mean stuff that specifically requires udev?

How do you see things like apache/mysql working once Arch starts shipping them with systemd service files instead of rc.d startup scripts?  Write your own?  Another package with just startup scripts?

Don't take this as a criticism, just wondering.  I've been going thru the reverse process with systemd (finding service files to replace rc.d scripts)

yes the stuff for udev, but am starting on the long road of modifying the other "rouges", ie service packages, for a few months at least can use the old initscripts ( 212.05 ) , and hence the old rc scripts. Arch have chosen to compile and set everything up using sysd but for the mostpart upstream is just adding support not switching over. The redhat packages obviously are a REAL pain, device-mapper being the worst ( not for startup but for the api issues), but for everything else looks cool to turn em back. Remember Debian is not switching over ( obviously that includes ubuntu ) THEY are the key player in this, people dont realise but its debian that shapes linux not redhat ( gentoo prob third ). So anything that one needs should be there in terms of non-sysd stuff.

If anyone fancies a laugh this is the pkgbuild for udev-lfs the LFS strip of udev from systemd


# $Id: PKGBUILD 159356 2012-05-22 12:46:15Z tomegun $
# Maintainer: highly experimental dont use in production <teg@jklm.no>

 
pkgname=udev
_axepkgname=systemd
pkgver=189
pkgrel=1
pkgdesc="The userspace dev tools (udev)"
depends=('util-linux' 'glib2' 'kmod' 'hwids' 'bash' 'acl')
conflicts=('systemd-tools 'systemd')
 
install=udev.install
arch=(i686 x86_64)
license=('GPL')
makedepends=('gobject-introspection' 'gperf' 'libxslt')
source=("http://www.freedesktop.org/software/$_axepkgname/$_axepkgname-$pkgver.tar.xz"
         "http://anduin.linuxfromscratch.org/sources/other/udev-lfs-189.tar.bz2"
        initcpio-hooks-udev
        initcpio-install-udev)
backup=(etc/udev/udev.conf)
groups=('base')
options=(!makeflags !libtool)
md5sums=('ac2eb313f5dce79622f60aac56bca66d'
          '2840CD8C5FA91617EFD36123486A7AC5'
         'e433c11d38cf4f877b41d06e2753ebe0'
         'e6faf4c3fe456f10d8efd2487d5e3cb7')
 
build() {
  cd $srcdir
  cp -pr udev-lfs-189 /$_axepkgname-$_axepkgver/
  
  cd $srcdir/$_axepkgname-$pkgver

  
  ./configure --prefix=/usr \
              --sysconfdir=/etc \
              --libexecdir=/usr/lib \
              --with-firmware-path=/usr/lib/firmware/updates:/lib/firmware/updates:/usr/lib/firmware:/lib/firmware \
              --with-usb-ids-path=/usr/share/hwdata/usb.ids \
              --with-pci-ids-path=/usr/share/hwdata/pci.ids
 
  make -f udev-lfs-189/Makefile.lfs
}

 
package() {
  cd $srcdir/$_axepkgname-$pkgver
  make -f DESTDIR=${pkgdir} install udev-lfs-189/Makefile.lfs install
 
  # install the mkinitpcio hook
  install -D -m644 ../initcpio-hooks-udev ${pkgdir}/usr/lib/initcpio/hooks/udev
  install -D -m644 ../initcpio-install-udev ${pkgdir}/usr/lib/initcpio/install/udev
 
  # udevd moved, symlink to make life easy for restarting udevd manually
  ln -s ../lib/udev/udevd ${pkgdir}/usr/bin/udevd
 
  # the path to udevadm is hardcoded in some places
  install -d ${pkgdir}/sbin
  ln -s ../usr/bin/udevadm ${pkgdir}/sbin/udevadm
 
  # fix wrong path to /bin/sh
  sed -i -e 's#/usr/bin/sh#/bin/sh#g' $pkgdir/usr/lib/udev/keyboard-force-release.sh
 
  # Replace dialout/tape/cdrom group in rules with uucp/storage/optical group
  for i in $pkgdir/usr/lib/udev/rules.d/*.rules; do
    sed -i -e 's#GROUP="dialout"#GROUP="uucp"#g;
               s#GROUP="tape"#GROUP="storage"#g;
               s#GROUP="cdrom"#GROUP="optical"#g' $i
  done
}

LFS make install is highly distro specific and you have to install with -f, its not at all suitable for use, just for experiment
It does work but only as well as udev-fork which means some apps will complain about version numbers in the background but still function.
Have not tried the systemd-udev strip patch yet

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#57 2012-09-12 13:04:30

scjet
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

The redhat packages obviously are a REAL pain, device-mapper being the worst ( not for startup but for the api issues), but for everything else looks cool to turn em back. Remember Debian is not switching over ( obviously that includes ubuntu ) THEY are the key player in this, people dont realise but its debian that shapes linux not redhat ( gentoo prob third ). So anything that one needs should be there in terms of non-sysd stuff.

Here's where the cart before the horse is weird to me stiil, sry for lack of experience here.
Gnome. awhile back, has already hinted of going their own road with their own Distro/LinuxOS "with" systemd, of course, and Ubuntu is watching this too.
Ubuntu has already chosen Unity, (without the blessing of Debian).
Debian's stance for not worrying about systemd may also be tied to the fact of their kFreeBSD projects/hobbies, and the same can be said about Gentoo, since a NetBSD fellow did a lot of work to help with the gentoo's BSD derivatives.
when we talk about Debian's control, we must also understand that it's IBM/<$$$-big-interests>/RedHat that's got very big elbows-so-to-speak too.

I'm all for what you propose, and help us do, but in the long term, this is a very crucial turning point. -again, as you yourself very well know.
Philosophically speaking, if I may, this and more may SPLIT/FORK (Arch)Linux into 2 camps, in the future. ? -but probably not over this.

Even so I still would like the ability to freely choose "rc/inits", instead of "systemd".
Bottom-line, "administratively-speaking", if I were to be running Arch 1 -year from now, (with systemd), do you feel it is possible with a drop-in pkg(s), that I could just as easily switch completely over to "init" style startups,... completely. ? And of course, vica-versa, ?
If so, then from a (Desktop/Laptop) User's point of view, I'd say hell ya, lets do it.

At some point, however, as others well know, will this not be dependent on the present "primordeal" Arch devs upstream, and how much can this potentially damage this endevour ?

That's afterall, is what what worries me the most, unless of course we're all willing to "fork" ArchBang - possibly much more than Chakra is, right now, although Chakra is actually going with "systemd" sad

If I'm wrong (technically C-wise), then please let me know.
@Jubei-Mitsuyoshi, if this smells like criticism, trust me, it isn't.
I have a great respect for your endevour/proposals, but I just gotta ask this, for now, even if my thoughts/questions are kinda non-founded.

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-12 13:37:26)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#58 2012-09-12 17:24:07

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Yes we are at a huge turning point, there is change acoming technologically, socially, and not surprisingly in linux, that cannot be a bad thing in itself and no one should be slightest bit afraid of embracing any change as long as its for the better, defining what is "better" is surprisingly easy despite what most people think smile

Yep agreed this looks like splintering arch a bit ( us being the splinter smile ) or splitting it wide open, if it turns out a "old arch" setup is actually superior to a systemd setup ( we will have to see on that one but i think once direct comparisons can be made there will be some real fallout ), this will prob not be good for arch, especially if devs come this way. Unfortunately i am an engineer, life bred, and sentiment does not really get in the way, we have a few motto's, a relevant one being "do what it takes", in this case its produce a viable alternative to systemd in arch, and thats what i will do, if it takes rewriting and maintaining every single package in arch then so be it, if it takes heavily modifying upstream code ( do a debiam ) then so be it. there is always a way of making it happen, one just has to find it.

i would like there to be a "one click" changeover script ( from sysd to init or whatever init prog we finally adopt ), should be very easy using a repo or even AUR. dont plan a script to go back.

Yes i do see this effort as a long term thing, its not going to be quick or easy, but i believe worth it for all of us, so yes i believe you could switch over in a years time or in a couple of weeks smile

Ok guys as said before am off on holiday for a few weeks ( motorcycling round Europe ), very fortunately a talented programmer has turned up in the nick of time to head/drive this effort while i am away, he should turn up soon, and hopefully will be finishing work on udev-fork-lsd and pushing it into the AUR, he is in charge of a custom repo so we should be seeing this project on direct download soon, im sure you will get on with him, you guys are some of the BEST period smile

thanks and see you in a few weekks.

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#59 2012-09-13 07:39:51

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Enjoy your holiday, stay safe and see you when you get back. Take care!!


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#60 2012-09-13 13:23:31

smil3y
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From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 168
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

And here I am, Ivailo Monev from Bulgaria - 21-year old geek to set the world free from systemd!

I've been working on polishing the packages set and I think it is ready - udev-lsd works for me and am awaiting feedback from you.

Sources for the packages and the binaries can be looked at/downloaded from my own repository at GitHub: https://github.com/fluxer/PKGBUILDs. Instructions on how to use the repo are in the README. I will update the packages on AUR soon too.

If you choose to add the repo to your pacman.conf you should be able to make a stage3 tarball with the help of mkarchroot.

Cheers!

Edit: packages on AUR updated. And forgot to mention that packages in the repository which are architecture dependant are for x86_64 only so I could use some help building those for i686 smile

Last edited by smil3y (2012-09-13 14:26:43)


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#61 2012-09-13 15:55:00

scjet
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 1,407

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

@smil3y,
Well, there you are, and there we all are, and welcome "Ivailo".
I hope you're stay here is a very long, and pleasant one, and thankyou very much for the potential help thus far.
smile
Rick.

EDIT: I have a funny feeling we're gonna need a separate "Sub_Forum" just for all this, hopefully.

Last edited by scjet (2012-09-13 16:02:23)


The "BSD" things in life are "Free of Systemd" ! ..but who knows what could happen tomorrow ?

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#62 2012-09-14 03:46:46

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Welcome Ivailo!!! Excited to test your stuff out!! Again, welcome to ArchBang!!!


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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#63 2012-09-14 23:05:03

smil3y
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 168
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Hello again,

I've noticed that gudev is not compiled and I've already changed the PKGBUILD to fix this but I have troubles with my ISP and I hope that I will be able to uppdate the PKGBUILD soon. I'm writing this from my laptop at work but it has only Vista installed (got it recently).

If you can't wait for my PKGBUILD for now you can change the make commands to invoke "make ... all" for the compilation and "make ... install-all" for the installation command.

Cheers!

Last edited by smil3y (2012-09-14 23:46:52)


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#64 2012-09-16 04:44:14

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Hi all, greetings from Switzerland, stuck in a guest house sheltering from some nasty weather smile
A very quick post, ( dont want to get in smil3y's way, who is doing such a brilliant job as temporary project leader while i am away ) Now we are defiantly somewhere with the base system, i was looking at the other packages, a simple text search through the Arch package git flagged over 200 packages with some kind of systemd modification, be it installing service entries or in some cases a lot more. The arch devs have been VERY thorough smile
I think we can cover all these packages using git ( am taking a crash course in git now ), and run our own packages from git, smil3y is the expert on this.
But i think we may lose AUR support, putting 200 *-lsd packages onto the AUR and supporting the non-automatically is going to be difficult.
How do you guys feel about losing AUR support ?

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#65 2012-09-16 04:49:27

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

A quick way would be to set up a repo using dropbox, as you are only holding pkgbuilds they do not take up that much room.

Not sure if you can use source forge or git for holding pkgbuilds something I have not tried.

We did have ArchBang specific packages for recent builds and did not feel like adding them to AUR.


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#66 2012-09-16 07:23:51

smil3y
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From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 168
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Dropbox is an option (see https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Un … ositories), SourceForge will do it too (the Manjaro developers were doing it in the beginning but now they have more mirrors and own server). I'm feeling comfy with GitHub because changes can be tracked and reverted very easily if needed, a group of people can work correctly without messing the things up and more. But it's not just me who will decide that, a poll or something would be good so we are headed in the right direction from the start to save us time and effort.

BTW, my internet is back but I should get some sleep because I'm at work after 2-hours and haven't slept much lately. I'm uploading my local changes now and see you tomorow when I get up from my night shift smile

Cheers!


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#67 2012-09-16 09:14:49

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

well i vote for something to do with git on technical reasons, all arch packages are on git, we have to git clone that to start of with so why not continue with the git metaphore? The only thing against it is if there was an existing system, or something better.
For up to 20 packages doing the versions/maintanance is ok in the AUR or other static sites etc... but for 200+ we are going to need automation built in somewhere.
Could be done with script which i think would be possible, there is boxit from  http://blog.manjaro.org/ , which is interesting cos its setup for arch as standard, but concentrates on the binaries, and wee also need tight control of the pkgbuilds.
We await your votes especially from devs ( mr green? ) and others who might in future join up by maintaining a package or 2, i was a total git novice and picked it up quite quick with a gui on windows, seems quite cool, no wander coders like it. Us EE's tend to stick to svn.

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#68 2012-09-16 10:34:06

Mr Green
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Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Speaking from my limited experience I do find it hard to maintain ArchBang iso & installer. Source building has never been something I have enjoyed from my days of using Gentoo. I need to know more about boxit....

If I can help I will, but no way am I building 200+ packages ain't gonna happen smile


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#69 2012-09-16 10:35:19

smil3y
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From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 168
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

You are not alone, mate! Don't forget that we are on the same road smile


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#70 2012-09-16 13:25:05

Jubei-Mitsuyoshi
Member
Registered: 2012-09-07
Posts: 37

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

building them is least of our troubles smile, i can sort out a build-bot no problem, it can build em remotely and push them wherever, just as long as we are all cool with the packages themselves, and that means the source format.
200+ should not trouble us much either, each package is being well maintained at arch, we are just modifying it slightly ( with about 6 being heavy mods ). Also the packages affected are only a fairly small percentage of all the packages, we really are not forking at all ( which would be impossible at this stage, and probably ever )
I can have all from core done in 2 days, ( as soon as i get back ) the rest in a week max.
Then its a matter of hand-maintaining them while they get tested and we build an automated build and distribution system, thats going to be a tough period smile
When the automation and scripts kick in i see it being quite easy for the two of us.

mr green... thanks for the offer of help, will hold you to it when we get on our feet smile

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#71 2012-09-16 14:57:05

smil3y
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From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 168
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Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/De … troduction, this is worth looking at. It seems there are already some scripts that can be of use for which I just learned about.


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#72 2012-09-16 21:12:11

handy
Member
Registered: 2011-11-03
Posts: 500

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

So is this how it will work:

Arch(Bang) users will need to enable another repo & by calling whatever package name run script(s) that will replace all of the packages associated with systemd on their system, being ~200 in the worst cases?

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#73 2012-09-16 21:25:15

smil3y
Member
From: Bulgaria
Registered: 2012-09-13
Posts: 168
Website

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Actually, no. Currently the packages we maintain can be installed with a single command:

pacman -S lsd

because they are in a separate group (as is base for an example) after adding the repository we provide which easily added to pacman.conf. I can't tell you if the AB devs are going to provide access to the repository by default tough, that's their decision to make.


GNU/Linux does not stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things.

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#74 2012-09-16 22:43:05

Mr Green
^! Developer
Registered: 2010-11-07
Posts: 5,386

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Take a look at Boxit [manjaro] still not fully up to speed on what it does exactly but maybe something you are looking for.


"Have done an install of archbang while on a bus"

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#75 2012-09-17 01:10:21

ArchVortex
Retired AB Overlord
From: Junrejo, Jawa Timur, Indonesia
Registered: 2011-04-01
Posts: 1,456

Re: Fork of udev - no need to change your Arch system from Linux to Lennax

Maybe we can make a test .iso with the repository already uncommented on the pacman.conf and see how it goes. I have no problem with that and then we can feedback and start tweaking. Up to Mr Green, he's the head developer.


GUI's?? We don't need no stinkin' GUI's!!!
ArchBang-OpenRC / Slackware / Gentoo / FreeBSD / HaikuOS

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